There is a balance to be had here. Firstly, the idea of super-projects and sub-projects is tricky. I personally think that in this case it might have some merit, but I agree with others I don't think its going to fly just now. But maybe the approach will change.
However, I'm very positive about Tammo's overall goals here: I'd really like to see a more co-ordinated and active roadmap and and encourage people to see that we have focussed plans around BPM. I'm certainly willing to help out with whatever I can. Paul On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 4:43 PM, Guillaume Nodet <[email protected]> wrote: > Btw, don't get me wrong. I don't say you should not start implementing WSHT > or anything else inside Ode. > I'm just saying that *aiming* at being an umbrella project is not the best > thing to do. > > On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 17:41, Guillaume Nodet <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 17:00, Tammo van Lessen <[email protected]>wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> okay, first I agree that integrating and sharing code of multiple sub >>> projects into one repository with one build system makes sense and makes >>> integration, testing etc. easier. Although I think they should be >>> packaged separately (e.g. as mvn bundles and dists) as WSHT >>> implementations are probably also interesting for people not necessarily >>> interested in ODE. I think the Solr/Lucene guys did some similar merge. >>> >>> If those subprojects are consumable independantly, they may be better as >> two peer TLPs at the end. >> Because you will end up in two different communities: some new committers >> will be involved in one >> project but not the other. >> >> Anyway, it mostly depend on the size of the subprojects and the size of >> their respective communities. >> You'd better start either in the incubator or in ode, and see what the >> status is in one year. >> >> >>> Regarding umbrellas: No matter if it's called bpm.apache.org or >>> ode.apache.org, it will probably become an umbrella. I understand that >>> the ASF likes top-level-projects, but I personally find it very >>> difficult currently to find projects that are related, belong together >>> or are intended to be used together, simply because their names not >>> really suggest that they belong to a certain domain. That's why I >>> actually really like ws.apache.org or db.apache.org because I always >>> know what I can expect to find there. >>> >>> >> FWIW, Apache Web Services is being kinda dismantled as Axis is being spin >> off as a TLP. >> And the names you refer to (ws and db) would actually never be accepted as >> new TLP afaik. >> Because the ASF does not have any technical vision / roadmap / strategy, >> you can have >> multiple TLP on the same domain (consider CXF / Axis, but there are other >> examples too). >> So having a bpm.apache.org would not be possible I think. >> >> The fact that it's difficult to find projects for a given technology is >> irrelevant to the fact that they >> are grouped into a single TLP or not I think. For that, the >> projects.apache.org site should be >> improved imo. >> >> >>> Tammo >>> >>> On 07.06.2010 15:47, Rafal Rusin wrote: >>> > I think growing ODE is the way to go, because in the end, things will be >>> > integrated, which means a lot. >>> > >>> > On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 3:36 PM, Guillaume Nodet <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> > >>> >> Last time I looked, umbrella projects were still frowned upon at the >>> ASF >>> >> ... >>> >> >>> >> On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 15:32, Tammo van Lessen <[email protected]> >>> >> wrote: >>> >> >>> >>> Hi guys, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'd like to raise a discussion about the ecosystem at Apache around >>> ODE >>> >>> in particular and BPM in general. >>> >>> >>> >>> While ODE is getting mature and provides a stable BPEL execution, the >>> >>> BPM market is moving on, bringing up new languages (BPMN 2.0), new >>> human >>> >>> task definitions (WSHT), new integrations (BPEL4People), new projects >>> >>> (Apache Hise), new adopters (JBoss Riftsaw), etc. >>> >>> >>> >>> I think it is time to discuss not only an adjusted road map for ODE >>> >>> (adding support for BPMN 2.0 and BPEL4People/WSHT) but also the BPM >>> >>> ecosystem at Apache. >>> >>> >>> >>> Apache Hise is currently under incubation and ODE is the sponsoring >>> PMC. >>> >>> There may also be other BPM related projects that may want to find >>> their >>> >>> home at Apache, but not necessarily under the umbrella of ODE, which >>> >>> would directly connect them with BPEL and/or process execution. >>> >>> >>> >>> I think we should think about founding a BPM umbrella PMC at Apache >>> the >>> >>> can serve as the home of Ode, Hise, and whatever BPMish project that >>> >>> will come up in future. Honestly, this is yet just an uncooked idea, >>> but >>> >>> I'd like to get your opinions on that. WDYT? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Tammo >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Tammo van Lessen - http://www.taval.de >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> -- >>> >> Cheers, >>> >> Guillaume Nodet >>> >> ------------------------ >>> >> Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/ >>> >> ------------------------ >>> >> Open Source SOA >>> >> http://fusesource.com >>> >> >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >>> -- >>> Tammo van Lessen - http://www.taval.de >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Cheers, >> Guillaume Nodet >> ------------------------ >> Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/ >> ------------------------ >> Open Source SOA >> http://fusesource.com >> >> >> > > > -- > Cheers, > Guillaume Nodet > ------------------------ > Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/ > ------------------------ > Open Source SOA > http://fusesource.com > -- Paul Fremantle Co-Founder and CTO, WSO2 Apache Synapse PMC Chair OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair blog: http://pzf.fremantle.org [email protected] "Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com
