Hi All, I investigated flash plugin crashes today and would like to share some results.
First of all, crash happens both with SWF10 and SWF 11. It seems like the problem is reproducible with H263, H264 1.2 and H264 5.1. Actually, I haven't noticed significant CPU usage degradation for H264 in compare with H263 - it always was about 50-70% when I enter OpenMeetings room. The same is true about the memory usage. I was able to get the crash report in Mozilla, however for now don't see any info which can help me there. Tested environment was: Windows XP + Mozilla FireFox 19.0 + flash player 11.5.502.146. Tested server was demo.dataved.ru, there were two users with videos (1 with big window and the other with normal) in the room + me with normal window. For now anybody can try different cases on http://demo.dataved.ru/openmeetings and get own expression. Below are the links which can be tested and my today results for each of them: - http://demo.dataved.ru/openmeetings/?swf=main.as3.swf10.swf&junk=666 - SWF10 + H263. Crashed 3 times from 10. - http://demo.dataved.ru/openmeetings/?swf=main.as3.swf11.h263.swf&junk=666- SWF11 + H263. Crashed 0 times from 10. - http://demo.dataved.ru/openmeetings/?swf=main.as3.swf11.h264_1_2.swf&junk=666- SWF11 + H264 1.2. Crashed 2 times from 10. - http://demo.dataved.ru/openmeetings/?swf=main.as3.swf11.h264_5_1.swf&junk=666- SWF11 + H264 5/1/ Crashed 1 times from 10. Best regards, Irina. On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 5:02 PM, Maxim Solodovnik <[email protected]>wrote: > that is definitely something not readable :( > I can see the word "static" in the generated code :) this is global > variables :))) > > > On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 4:57 PM, [email protected] < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > just for consideration, > > attached is the current AS3 that OpenLaszlo generates. > > > > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/download/attachments/27836308/lzswf9.tar.gz > > > > Sebastian > > > > > > 2013/3/13 Maxim Solodovnik <[email protected]> > > > >> I thought maybe it will be simple to convert swf10 folder of our sources > >> + I would like "someone else" will handle it :)))) > >> > >> > >> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 4:38 PM, [email protected] < > >> [email protected]> wrote: > >> > >>> Sorry but that is useless. > >>> The AS3 code that OpenLaszlo compiles is not human readable. It is > >>> generated into some tmp directory. > >>> You can search on your disc for a file called LZC_COMPILER_OPTIONS > >>> That should be into the same directory as the actual AS3 files. > >>> > >>> The thing is that there are of course some high level similarities. > >>> However there are also high level similarities between AS3 and HTML5. > For > >>> example an ActionScript3 "Sprite" is nearly the same as an HTML "div" > or > >>> maybe "span" but you can really translate those things just and expect > the > >>> functionality is the same. > >>> > >>> The entire notation in MXML is different, same about the script blogs. > >>> A script blog in openlaszlo looks like: > >>> var zxac = 3; > >>> in AS it would look like: > >>> var zxac:int = 3; > >>> No matter how you do it, you will have to go through every file, debug > >>> every line of code, understand the logic, convert it to MXML, test it. > And > >>> some constructs of course won't translate that easy. > >>> For example in Flex you can't create that simple a "global" pointer. > >>> Like: canvas.myattribute or parent.myattribute > >>> This simply won't compile. AS3 won't let you compile such pointers. You > >>> need to pass the parameter into the object to access its attributes, or > >>> pass the attribute inside of it. > >>> So a lot of the things we do when having some attribute in the canvas > >>> and pointing to them from various places in the app ... it simply > doesn't > >>> work in MXML. > >>> > >>> So of course it depends on to what extend you plan to build a Flex > >>> client. Maybe just the SWF11 app converting to MXML is an option. But > the > >>> entire SWF8 app. I don't think so. Just too complex. > >>> > >>> Sebastian > >>> > >>> > >>> 2013/3/13 Alexei Fedotov <[email protected]> > >>> > >>>> The files appear in some temporary directory. I cannot remember where > >>>> they are exactly. If you make an error when embedding action script > >>>> into openlaszlo (should be something on action script level, xml > >>>> markup would break the preprocessor itself), you get in the error > >>>> message an exact pointer to the file where your error is put. > >>>> -- > >>>> With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями, > >>>> Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов, > >>>> http://dataved.ru/ > >>>> +7 916 562 8095 > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Maxim Solodovnik < > >>>> [email protected]> wrote: > >>>> > @Alexey we currently using flex 4.5.0, 4.6.1 to create bytecode > >>>> > "can be inspected/used" means autoconverted :) action script instead > >>>> of > >>>> > openlaszlo is also good :) > >>>> > > >>>> > can you please tell me how this can be inspected? > >>>> > > >>>> > @Sebastian I thought we use only view/label/dataset/connection in > our > >>>> swf10 > >>>> > code .... all these primitives should be available in MXML. > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 2:52 PM, Alexei Fedotov < > >>>> [email protected]> > >>>> > wrote: > >>>> >> > >>>> >> @Max AS3 means action script > >>>> >> > >>>> >> Modern OpenLaszlo compiles into AS3, these files can be inspected > and > >>>> >> used instead of openlaszlo files. > >>>> >> Then standard Adobe tools create swf bytecode from AS3. > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> -- > >>>> >> With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями, > >>>> >> Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов, > >>>> >> http://dataved.ru/ > >>>> >> +7 916 562 8095 > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 11:18 AM, [email protected] > >>>> >> <[email protected]> wrote: > >>>> >> > MXML has certainly advantages in the sense of wider acceptance > and > >>>> >> > better > >>>> >> > development tools. > >>>> >> > But it really means to build something from scratch. > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > Sebastian > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > 2013/3/13 Maxim Solodovnik <[email protected]> > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> >> @Alexey we currently using openlaszlo for video (not sure what > do > >>>> you > >>>> >> >> mean > >>>> >> >> by AS3). Currently our version of video components is built > using > >>>> >> >> flex.4.6.1 while actual version available for download is flex > >>>> 4.9.1. > >>>> >> >> I was hoping we will have less bugs and better performance if we > >>>> will > >>>> >> >> use > >>>> >> >> MXML directly for our code. But this is just a guess. > >>>> >> >> > >>>> >> >> > >>>> >> >> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 2:00 PM, [email protected] < > >>>> >> >> [email protected]> wrote: > >>>> >> >> > >>>> >> >>> You can simply disable h264 and build to swf11. > >>>> >> >>> It is only about the codec not about SWF formats. > >>>> >> >>> > >>>> >> >>> I just compared and could not really find out if there are big > >>>> >> >>> differences. > >>>> >> >>> However it is definitly good to really compare the impacts on > >>>> CPU and > >>>> >> >>> bandwidth usage when switching the Codec for video encoding. > >>>> >> >>> It seemed to me like encoding with h264 is using a second > >>>> process (on > >>>> >> >>> OSX > >>>> >> >>> that process is called WindowsServer). It might be that h264 > >>>> encoding > >>>> >> >>> can > >>>> >> >>> use some more system ressources. However... all just guessing > at > >>>> this > >>>> >> >>> point. > >>>> >> >>> > >>>> >> >>> Sebastian > >>>> >> >>> > >>>> >> >>> > >>>> >> >>> 2013/3/13 Maxim Solodovnik <[email protected]> > >>>> >> >>> > >>>> >> >>>> Maybe we can add conversion task to the GSOC ideas? do we need > >>>> it? > >>>> >> >>>> > >>>> >> >>>> I don't see any problems with h264 > >>>> >> >>>> I'm going to build > >>>> >> >>>> 1) SWF11 with h264 support removed > >>>> >> >>>> 2) SWF11 with different h264 profile > >>>> >> >>>> 3) SWF10 > >>>> >> >>>> > >>>> >> >>>> and compare > >>>> >> >>>> but i'm not expecting any major differences :( > >>>> >> >>>> > >>>> >> >>>> > >>>> >> >>>> > >>>> >> >>>> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 1:17 PM, [email protected] < > >>>> >> >>>> [email protected]> wrote: > >>>> >> >>>> > >>>> >> >>>>> No there is no such conversion. You have to rewrite the LZX > to > >>>> MXML > >>>> >> >>>>> and > >>>> >> >>>>> AS3 files. > >>>> >> >>>>> What about the Video Codec? I don't think it makes sense to > >>>> start a > >>>> >> >>>>> RC2 > >>>> >> >>>>> vote before this issue has been further analyzed. > >>>> >> >>>>> Is there a given restriction that needs h264? > >>>> >> >>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>> Sebastian > >>>> >> >>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>> 2013/3/13 Maxim Solodovnik <[email protected]> > >>>> >> >>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>> @Sebastian, maybe you know, is there any possibility to > >>>> >> >>>>>> automatically/semi-automatically convert our swf10 sources > to > >>>> >> >>>>>> "apache flex > >>>> >> >>>>>> xml"? Since Openlaszlo seems to be not actively developed > and > >>>> flex > >>>> >> >>>>>> is now > >>>> >> >>>>>> part of Apache, maybe we can benefit from such conversion? > >>>> >> >>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:28 PM, Maxim Solodovnik < > >>>> >> >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: > >>>> >> >>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>> I have forwarded all missing messages > >>>> >> >>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:25 PM, [email protected] < > >>>> >> >>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: > >>>> >> >>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>> you wrote me without CC'ing Irina or the list :) > >>>> >> >>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>> I missed the 'reply all' button somehow. > >>>> >> >>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>> Sebastian > >>>> >> >>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>> 2013/3/12 Maxim Solodovnik <[email protected]> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> this one > >>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OPENMEETINGS-559 > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> @Irina can you describe your problem more detailed? > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 3:46 PM, [email protected] < > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> We should simply do some tests to measure the actual > >>>> video with > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> h264 and the default Sorensen Codec. > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> Then we have some numbers. > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> What are the exact reports for "Flash Player crashing" ? > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> Sebastian > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> 2013/3/12 Maxim Solodovnik <[email protected]> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> I can add switching H264 off, but I'm not sure if this > >>>> is the > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> problem. > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Most claims are related to the crashing flash in > browser. > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Do you think this would help? > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 2:56 PM, [email protected]< > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry I did not meant default h323 I meant the default > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sorenson Spark > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorenson_Spark > >(Sorenson > >>>> H.263) > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sebastian > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> 2013/3/12 [email protected] < > [email protected]> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> h264 simply needs more computing time. > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> AEC also is enabled (which needs some percentages > more > >>>> CPU > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> power then the previous implementation). > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Switching to later Flex SDK is surely desirable but > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> basically > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the performance is a Flash Player/VirtualMachine > issue > >>>> not a > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Flash Compiler > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> issue. So as long as there is no Flash Player 12 that > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> requires a later Flex > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> SDK it is unlikely that you will gain performance > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> advantages. > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I think there is a hardware acceleration for playback > >>>> of > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> h264 > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> video, but I have really no idea about producing h264 > >>>> in the > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> browser in > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> that context. > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> From my point of view the main reason for using h264 > >>>> is the > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> SIP > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> integration. For users that don't use SIP integration > >>>> using > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> h264 will > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> simply just mean an annoying CPU usage. > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The case is different for AEC from my point of view. > >>>> AEC > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> brings > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> enhancement for everybody immediately. And the more > of > >>>> CPU > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> that it uses is > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> only 3-4 % from my point of view. > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> So my preference would be to make the video codec use > >>>> the > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> standard h323. To be honest: Who has ever complained > >>>> in the > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> last couple of > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> years about video quality? The discussion is almost > >>>> always > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> about audio > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> delay, audio quality, micro echo, bad microphones et > >>>> cetera > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> but actually > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> never about video quality. > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> And from what I have seen h264 also brings no > >>>> improvements > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> in > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> terms of bandwidth usage. > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> h264 could be available via configuration (or to > >>>> enable SIP > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> integration), but h323 should be used by default. > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sebastian > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 2013/3/12 Maxim Solodovnik <[email protected]> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello Raju, Sebastian, > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> according to > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OPENMEETINGS-559 and > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> various user reports (including mail from > >>>> Sebastian[1]) > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Main code changes were: adding EnchancedMicrophone > and > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> switch > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to h264 > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> According to the Google switching to h264 can cause > >>>> higher > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> CPU > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> usage. > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can this be fixed by changing H264Level? > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (currently H264Level.LEVEL_1_2 is used) > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe you can us understand were > performance/stability > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> degradation caused by code changes? Or maybe it is > >>>> because > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of Flex4.6.0? > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can stability be improved by switching to Flex4.9.1? > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks in advance for your help > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> [1] http://markmail.org/message/2el63qarsjmbvfyy > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://markmail.org/message/2el63qarsjmbvfyy>-- > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> WBR > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maxim aka solomax > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sebastian Wagner > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.webbase-design.de > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sebastian Wagner > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.webbase-design.de > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> -- > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> WBR > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Maxim aka solomax > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> -- > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> Sebastian Wagner > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.webbase-design.de > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> [email protected] > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> -- > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> WBR > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Maxim aka solomax > >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>>> -- > >>>> >> >>>>>>>> Sebastian Wagner > >>>> >> >>>>>>>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock > >>>> >> >>>>>>>> http://www.webbase-design.de > >>>> >> >>>>>>>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com > >>>> >> >>>>>>>> [email protected] > >>>> >> >>>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>>> -- > >>>> >> >>>>>>> WBR > >>>> >> >>>>>>> Maxim aka solomax > >>>> >> >>>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>>> -- > >>>> >> >>>>>> WBR > >>>> >> >>>>>> Maxim aka solomax > >>>> >> >>>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>> -- > >>>> >> >>>>> Sebastian Wagner > >>>> >> >>>>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock > >>>> >> >>>>> http://www.webbase-design.de > >>>> >> >>>>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com > >>>> >> >>>>> [email protected] > >>>> >> >>>>> > >>>> >> >>>> > >>>> >> >>>> > >>>> >> >>>> > >>>> >> >>>> -- > >>>> >> >>>> WBR > >>>> >> >>>> Maxim aka solomax > >>>> >> >>>> > >>>> >> >>> > >>>> >> >>> > >>>> >> >>> > >>>> >> >>> -- > >>>> >> >>> Sebastian Wagner > >>>> >> >>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock > >>>> >> >>> http://www.webbase-design.de > >>>> >> >>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com > >>>> >> >>> [email protected] > >>>> >> >>> > >>>> >> >> > >>>> >> >> > >>>> >> >> > >>>> >> >> -- > >>>> >> >> WBR > >>>> >> >> Maxim aka solomax > >>>> >> >> > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > -- > >>>> >> > Sebastian Wagner > >>>> >> > https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock > >>>> >> > http://www.webbase-design.de > >>>> >> > http://www.wagner-sebastian.com > >>>> >> > [email protected] > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > -- > >>>> > WBR > >>>> > Maxim aka solomax > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Sebastian Wagner > >>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock > >>> http://www.webbase-design.de > >>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com > >>> [email protected] > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> WBR > >> Maxim aka solomax > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Sebastian Wagner > > https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock > > http://www.webbase-design.de > > http://www.wagner-sebastian.com > > [email protected] > > > > > > -- > WBR > Maxim aka solomax >
