It seems like we have proof swf11+h264 not causing performance degradation @Sebastian what do you think, is it time for RC2?
On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 7:56 PM, Alexei Fedotov <[email protected]>wrote: > Great job, Irina! > Thanks for digging this out. > -- > With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями, > Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов, > http://dataved.ru/ > +7 916 562 8095 > > > On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 4:28 PM, Irina Arkhipets > <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > I investigated flash plugin crashes today and would like to share some > > results. > > > > First of all, crash happens both with SWF10 and SWF 11. It seems like the > > problem is reproducible with H263, H264 1.2 and H264 5.1. > > > > Actually, I haven't noticed significant CPU usage degradation for H264 in > > compare with H263 - it always was about 50-70% when I enter OpenMeetings > > room. The same is true about the memory usage. > > > > I was able to get the crash report in Mozilla, however for now don't see > > any info which can help me there. > > > > Tested environment was: Windows XP + Mozilla FireFox 19.0 + flash player > > 11.5.502.146. Tested server was demo.dataved.ru, there were two users > with > > videos (1 with big window and the other with normal) in the room + me > with > > normal window. > > > > For now anybody can try different cases on > > http://demo.dataved.ru/openmeetings and get own expression. > > > > Below are the links which can be tested and my today results for each of > > them: > > > > - http://demo.dataved.ru/openmeetings/?swf=main.as3.swf10.swf&junk=666 - > > SWF10 + H263. Crashed 3 times from 10. > > - > http://demo.dataved.ru/openmeetings/?swf=main.as3.swf11.h263.swf&junk=666- > > SWF11 + H263. Crashed 0 times from 10. > > - > > > http://demo.dataved.ru/openmeetings/?swf=main.as3.swf11.h264_1_2.swf&junk=666- > > SWF11 + H264 1.2. Crashed 2 times from 10. > > - > > > http://demo.dataved.ru/openmeetings/?swf=main.as3.swf11.h264_5_1.swf&junk=666- > > SWF11 + H264 5/1/ Crashed 1 times from 10. > > > > Best regards, > > Irina. > > > > On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 5:02 PM, Maxim Solodovnik <[email protected] > >wrote: > > > >> that is definitely something not readable :( > >> I can see the word "static" in the generated code :) this is global > >> variables :))) > >> > >> > >> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 4:57 PM, [email protected] < > >> [email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> > just for consideration, > >> > attached is the current AS3 that OpenLaszlo generates. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/download/attachments/27836308/lzswf9.tar.gz > >> > > >> > Sebastian > >> > > >> > > >> > 2013/3/13 Maxim Solodovnik <[email protected]> > >> > > >> >> I thought maybe it will be simple to convert swf10 folder of our > sources > >> >> + I would like "someone else" will handle it :)))) > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 4:38 PM, [email protected] < > >> >> [email protected]> wrote: > >> >> > >> >>> Sorry but that is useless. > >> >>> The AS3 code that OpenLaszlo compiles is not human readable. It is > >> >>> generated into some tmp directory. > >> >>> You can search on your disc for a file called LZC_COMPILER_OPTIONS > >> >>> That should be into the same directory as the actual AS3 files. > >> >>> > >> >>> The thing is that there are of course some high level similarities. > >> >>> However there are also high level similarities between AS3 and > HTML5. > >> For > >> >>> example an ActionScript3 "Sprite" is nearly the same as an HTML > "div" > >> or > >> >>> maybe "span" but you can really translate those things just and > expect > >> the > >> >>> functionality is the same. > >> >>> > >> >>> The entire notation in MXML is different, same about the script > blogs. > >> >>> A script blog in openlaszlo looks like: > >> >>> var zxac = 3; > >> >>> in AS it would look like: > >> >>> var zxac:int = 3; > >> >>> No matter how you do it, you will have to go through every file, > debug > >> >>> every line of code, understand the logic, convert it to MXML, test > it. > >> And > >> >>> some constructs of course won't translate that easy. > >> >>> For example in Flex you can't create that simple a "global" pointer. > >> >>> Like: canvas.myattribute or parent.myattribute > >> >>> This simply won't compile. AS3 won't let you compile such pointers. > You > >> >>> need to pass the parameter into the object to access its > attributes, or > >> >>> pass the attribute inside of it. > >> >>> So a lot of the things we do when having some attribute in the > canvas > >> >>> and pointing to them from various places in the app ... it simply > >> doesn't > >> >>> work in MXML. > >> >>> > >> >>> So of course it depends on to what extend you plan to build a Flex > >> >>> client. Maybe just the SWF11 app converting to MXML is an option. > But > >> the > >> >>> entire SWF8 app. I don't think so. Just too complex. > >> >>> > >> >>> Sebastian > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> 2013/3/13 Alexei Fedotov <[email protected]> > >> >>> > >> >>>> The files appear in some temporary directory. I cannot remember > where > >> >>>> they are exactly. If you make an error when embedding action script > >> >>>> into openlaszlo (should be something on action script level, xml > >> >>>> markup would break the preprocessor itself), you get in the error > >> >>>> message an exact pointer to the file where your error is put. > >> >>>> -- > >> >>>> With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями, > >> >>>> Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов, > >> >>>> http://dataved.ru/ > >> >>>> +7 916 562 8095 > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Maxim Solodovnik < > >> >>>> [email protected]> wrote: > >> >>>> > @Alexey we currently using flex 4.5.0, 4.6.1 to create bytecode > >> >>>> > "can be inspected/used" means autoconverted :) action script > instead > >> >>>> of > >> >>>> > openlaszlo is also good :) > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > can you please tell me how this can be inspected? > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > @Sebastian I thought we use only view/label/dataset/connection in > >> our > >> >>>> swf10 > >> >>>> > code .... all these primitives should be available in MXML. > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 2:52 PM, Alexei Fedotov < > >> >>>> [email protected]> > >> >>>> > wrote: > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> @Max AS3 means action script > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> Modern OpenLaszlo compiles into AS3, these files can be > inspected > >> and > >> >>>> >> used instead of openlaszlo files. > >> >>>> >> Then standard Adobe tools create swf bytecode from AS3. > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> -- > >> >>>> >> With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями, > >> >>>> >> Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов, > >> >>>> >> http://dataved.ru/ > >> >>>> >> +7 916 562 8095 > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 11:18 AM, [email protected] > >> >>>> >> <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >>>> >> > MXML has certainly advantages in the sense of wider acceptance > >> and > >> >>>> >> > better > >> >>>> >> > development tools. > >> >>>> >> > But it really means to build something from scratch. > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > Sebastian > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > 2013/3/13 Maxim Solodovnik <[email protected]> > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> >> @Alexey we currently using openlaszlo for video (not sure > what > >> do > >> >>>> you > >> >>>> >> >> mean > >> >>>> >> >> by AS3). Currently our version of video components is built > >> using > >> >>>> >> >> flex.4.6.1 while actual version available for download is > flex > >> >>>> 4.9.1. > >> >>>> >> >> I was hoping we will have less bugs and better performance > if we > >> >>>> will > >> >>>> >> >> use > >> >>>> >> >> MXML directly for our code. But this is just a guess. > >> >>>> >> >> > >> >>>> >> >> > >> >>>> >> >> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 2:00 PM, [email protected] < > >> >>>> >> >> [email protected]> wrote: > >> >>>> >> >> > >> >>>> >> >>> You can simply disable h264 and build to swf11. > >> >>>> >> >>> It is only about the codec not about SWF formats. > >> >>>> >> >>> > >> >>>> >> >>> I just compared and could not really find out if there are > big > >> >>>> >> >>> differences. > >> >>>> >> >>> However it is definitly good to really compare the impacts > on > >> >>>> CPU and > >> >>>> >> >>> bandwidth usage when switching the Codec for video encoding. > >> >>>> >> >>> It seemed to me like encoding with h264 is using a second > >> >>>> process (on > >> >>>> >> >>> OSX > >> >>>> >> >>> that process is called WindowsServer). It might be that h264 > >> >>>> encoding > >> >>>> >> >>> can > >> >>>> >> >>> use some more system ressources. However... all just > guessing > >> at > >> >>>> this > >> >>>> >> >>> point. > >> >>>> >> >>> > >> >>>> >> >>> Sebastian > >> >>>> >> >>> > >> >>>> >> >>> > >> >>>> >> >>> 2013/3/13 Maxim Solodovnik <[email protected]> > >> >>>> >> >>> > >> >>>> >> >>>> Maybe we can add conversion task to the GSOC ideas? do we > need > >> >>>> it? > >> >>>> >> >>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>> I don't see any problems with h264 > >> >>>> >> >>>> I'm going to build > >> >>>> >> >>>> 1) SWF11 with h264 support removed > >> >>>> >> >>>> 2) SWF11 with different h264 profile > >> >>>> >> >>>> 3) SWF10 > >> >>>> >> >>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>> and compare > >> >>>> >> >>>> but i'm not expecting any major differences :( > >> >>>> >> >>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 1:17 PM, [email protected] < > >> >>>> >> >>>> [email protected]> wrote: > >> >>>> >> >>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>> No there is no such conversion. You have to rewrite the > LZX > >> to > >> >>>> MXML > >> >>>> >> >>>>> and > >> >>>> >> >>>>> AS3 files. > >> >>>> >> >>>>> What about the Video Codec? I don't think it makes sense > to > >> >>>> start a > >> >>>> >> >>>>> RC2 > >> >>>> >> >>>>> vote before this issue has been further analyzed. > >> >>>> >> >>>>> Is there a given restriction that needs h264? > >> >>>> >> >>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>> Sebastian > >> >>>> >> >>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>> 2013/3/13 Maxim Solodovnik <[email protected]> > >> >>>> >> >>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>> @Sebastian, maybe you know, is there any possibility to > >> >>>> >> >>>>>> automatically/semi-automatically convert our swf10 > sources > >> to > >> >>>> >> >>>>>> "apache flex > >> >>>> >> >>>>>> xml"? Since Openlaszlo seems to be not actively developed > >> and > >> >>>> flex > >> >>>> >> >>>>>> is now > >> >>>> >> >>>>>> part of Apache, maybe we can benefit from such > conversion? > >> >>>> >> >>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:28 PM, Maxim Solodovnik < > >> >>>> >> >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: > >> >>>> >> >>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> I have forwarded all missing messages > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:25 PM, [email protected]< > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> you wrote me without CC'ing Irina or the list :) > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> I missed the 'reply all' button somehow. > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> Sebastian > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> 2013/3/12 Maxim Solodovnik <[email protected]> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> this one > >> >>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OPENMEETINGS-559 > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> @Irina can you describe your problem more detailed? > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 3:46 PM, > [email protected] < > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> We should simply do some tests to measure the actual > >> >>>> video with > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> h264 and the default Sorensen Codec. > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> Then we have some numbers. > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> What are the exact reports for "Flash Player > crashing" ? > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> Sebastian > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> 2013/3/12 Maxim Solodovnik <[email protected]> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> I can add switching H264 off, but I'm not sure if > this > >> >>>> is the > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> problem. > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Most claims are related to the crashing flash in > >> browser. > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Do you think this would help? > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 2:56 PM, > [email protected]< > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry I did not meant default h323 I meant the > default > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sorenson Spark > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorenson_Spark > >> >(Sorenson > >> >>>> H.263) > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sebastian > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> 2013/3/12 [email protected] < > >> [email protected]> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> h264 simply needs more computing time. > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> AEC also is enabled (which needs some percentages > >> more > >> >>>> CPU > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> power then the previous implementation). > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Switching to later Flex SDK is surely desirable > but > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> basically > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the performance is a Flash Player/VirtualMachine > >> issue > >> >>>> not a > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Flash Compiler > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> issue. So as long as there is no Flash Player 12 > that > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> requires a later Flex > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> SDK it is unlikely that you will gain performance > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> advantages. > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I think there is a hardware acceleration for > playback > >> >>>> of > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> h264 > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> video, but I have really no idea about producing > h264 > >> >>>> in the > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> browser in > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> that context. > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> From my point of view the main reason for using > h264 > >> >>>> is the > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> SIP > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> integration. For users that don't use SIP > integration > >> >>>> using > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> h264 will > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> simply just mean an annoying CPU usage. > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The case is different for AEC from my point of > view. > >> >>>> AEC > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> brings > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> enhancement for everybody immediately. And the > more > >> of > >> >>>> CPU > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> that it uses is > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> only 3-4 % from my point of view. > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> So my preference would be to make the video codec > use > >> >>>> the > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> standard h323. To be honest: Who has ever > complained > >> >>>> in the > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> last couple of > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> years about video quality? The discussion is > almost > >> >>>> always > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> about audio > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> delay, audio quality, micro echo, bad microphones > et > >> >>>> cetera > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> but actually > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> never about video quality. > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> And from what I have seen h264 also brings no > >> >>>> improvements > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> in > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> terms of bandwidth usage. > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> h264 could be available via configuration (or to > >> >>>> enable SIP > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> integration), but h323 should be used by default. > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sebastian > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 2013/3/12 Maxim Solodovnik <[email protected]> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello Raju, Sebastian, > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> according to > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OPENMEETINGS-559 and > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> various user reports (including mail from > >> >>>> Sebastian[1]) > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Main code changes were: adding > EnchancedMicrophone > >> and > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> switch > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to h264 > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> According to the Google switching to h264 can > cause > >> >>>> higher > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> CPU > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> usage. > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can this be fixed by changing H264Level? > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (currently H264Level.LEVEL_1_2 is used) > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe you can us understand were > >> performance/stability > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> degradation caused by code changes? Or maybe it > is > >> >>>> because > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of Flex4.6.0? > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can stability be improved by switching to > Flex4.9.1? > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks in advance for your help > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> [1] http://markmail.org/message/2el63qarsjmbvfyy > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://markmail.org/message/2el63qarsjmbvfyy > >-- > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> WBR > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maxim aka solomax > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sebastian Wagner > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.webbase-design.de > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sebastian Wagner > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.webbase-design.de > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> -- > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> WBR > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Maxim aka solomax > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> -- > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> Sebastian Wagner > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.webbase-design.de > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> [email protected] > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> -- > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> WBR > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Maxim aka solomax > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> -- > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> Sebastian Wagner > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> http://www.webbase-design.de > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> [email protected] > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> -- > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> WBR > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> Maxim aka solomax > >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>>> -- > >> >>>> >> >>>>>> WBR > >> >>>> >> >>>>>> Maxim aka solomax > >> >>>> >> >>>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>>> -- > >> >>>> >> >>>>> Sebastian Wagner > >> >>>> >> >>>>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock > >> >>>> >> >>>>> http://www.webbase-design.de > >> >>>> >> >>>>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com > >> >>>> >> >>>>> [email protected] > >> >>>> >> >>>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>> -- > >> >>>> >> >>>> WBR > >> >>>> >> >>>> Maxim aka solomax > >> >>>> >> >>>> > >> >>>> >> >>> > >> >>>> >> >>> > >> >>>> >> >>> > >> >>>> >> >>> -- > >> >>>> >> >>> Sebastian Wagner > >> >>>> >> >>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock > >> >>>> >> >>> http://www.webbase-design.de > >> >>>> >> >>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com > >> >>>> >> >>> [email protected] > >> >>>> >> >>> > >> >>>> >> >> > >> >>>> >> >> > >> >>>> >> >> > >> >>>> >> >> -- > >> >>>> >> >> WBR > >> >>>> >> >> Maxim aka solomax > >> >>>> >> >> > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > -- > >> >>>> >> > Sebastian Wagner > >> >>>> >> > https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock > >> >>>> >> > http://www.webbase-design.de > >> >>>> >> > http://www.wagner-sebastian.com > >> >>>> >> > [email protected] > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > -- > >> >>>> > WBR > >> >>>> > Maxim aka solomax > >> >>>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> -- > >> >>> Sebastian Wagner > >> >>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock > >> >>> http://www.webbase-design.de > >> >>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com > >> >>> [email protected] > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> WBR > >> >> Maxim aka solomax > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Sebastian Wagner > >> > https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock > >> > http://www.webbase-design.de > >> > http://www.wagner-sebastian.com > >> > [email protected] > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> WBR > >> Maxim aka solomax > >> > -- WBR Maxim aka solomax
