Yes, and actually I hope it would help my client too :) Regarding the video acceleration - actually, I just saw crash reports similar with mine in Mozilla bug tracker, and the recommendation was to turn this off.
Regards, Irina. On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 4:24 PM, [email protected] < [email protected]> wrote: > Hopefully the 26th tryout is no fail :) > Glad we could track this down to be an environment issue. > > It would be nice to know if the hardware acceleration has an effect on the > broadcasting (encoding) at all. > I am pretty sure it has an impact on viewing / decoding. But I am not so > sure for broadcasting/encoding video. > > Sebastian > > > 2013/3/14 Irina Arkhipets <[email protected]> > > > Seems like it works for me. > > > > At least, after the ffdshow update I was able to enter/exit the room 25 > > times without crash. > > > > I'll look for this a couple of days. And ask my client who claimed about > > the problem to do the same things and additionally try to turn the > hardware > > acceleration off. > > > > Thank you, > > Irina. > > > > On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 3:28 PM, Irina Arkhipets > > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > > > Sebastian, > > > > > > It seems like you are correct and this depends on configuration. > > > > > > I've received a reply from Mozilla about my bug: > > > ... > > > According to the previous stack trace, it's not a Firefox bug neither a > > > Flash > > > one, but a FFDShow one. You are using version 1.1.3761.0 while the > > current > > > one > > > is 1.3.4500. Update FFDShow: > > > http://ffdshow-tryout.sourceforge.net/download.php > > > Then report back. > > > ... > > > > > > You can track this here: > > > https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=850614 > > > > > > Will try their suggestion and inform you about the result. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Irina. > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 3:03 PM, [email protected] < > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > >> After all this sounds a lot like an issue with the webcam, microphone > or > > >> driver. > > >> > > >> The moment when your are in the conference, in the device settings and > > >> click on the button > > >> "start conference" what basically happens is that you set your > > audio/video > > >> settings and Flash access your webcam. > > >> > > >> So basically this is an environment issues. It could be also a > > combination > > >> of a Flash Player + certain device issues. > > >> I bet the same issue happens for those users if they use any other > Flash > > >> application that requires access to cam/mic. > > >> > > >> What kind of microphone and camera are you using ? > > >> Did you have maybe some driver that you can update or download for > those > > >> devices for your OS ? > > >> > > >> Sebastian > > >> > > >> > > >> 2013/3/14 Maxim Solodovnik <[email protected]> > > >> > > >> > @Alexei unfortunately this would not help since we have no useful > info > > >> > after such crash :( > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 2:33 PM, Alexei Fedotov < > > >> [email protected] > > >> > >wrote: > > >> > > > >> > > @Maxim, how difficult is to add a button for debug which would > > >> start/quit > > >> > > a conference in a loop to make the bug simpler to reproduce? > > >> > > 14.03.2013 10:56 пользователь "Irina Arkhipets" < > > >> > [email protected]> > > >> > > написал: > > >> > > > > >> > > Hi Sebastian, > > >> > >> > > >> > >> A). I use Win XP + FF 19.0 + flash 11.6.602.180. And Yulia have > the > > >> same > > >> > >> problems on W7 + GH + 11.6.602.171. > > >> > >> > > >> > >> B). Crash happens when I am entering the room after I click > "Start > > >> > >> Conference" in the "Choose device" screen. > > >> > >> > > >> > >> C). Plugin crashes in the following way: I get > > "plugin-container.exe" > > >> > >> application error window with the possibility to click OK to > > >> terminate > > >> > and > > >> > >> click CANCEL to debug. If I click OK I see a grey screen with the > > >> "Adobe > > >> > >> Flash plugin crashed" message and the "Send report" button. I > need > > to > > >> > >> reload the page to continue work. > > >> > >> > > >> > >> D). It seems like it's not possible to attach files when you > write > > to > > >> > >> mailing list, so I'll will send you a screen shot personally. > I've > > >> also > > >> > >> found a way to catch a report which is sent if I click the "Send > > >> report" > > >> > >> button - will send it to you too. > > >> > >> > > >> > >> E). Nothing special in the server log and browser console > > >> > >> > > >> > >> My additional notes: > > >> > >> > > >> > >> - Crash is reproducible if I run FireFox in safe mode. > > >> > >> > > >> > >> - Crash report reads: "Crash Reason > > >> EXCEPTION_ACCESS_VIOLATION_WRITE". > > >> > I > > >> > >> read in Internet that it can happen because of some video driver > > >> > problems > > >> > >> if hardware acceleration is turmed on, however I've just turned > it > > >> off > > >> > >> without improving > > >> > >> > > >> > >> - I've filed bug against Mozilla and send them some info and > crash > > >> > report > > >> > >> - > > >> > >> maybe they'll provide some advice > > >> > >> > > >> > >> - Setting dom.ipc.plugins.timeoutSecs to -1 in browser settings > > does > > >> not > > >> > >> help (this is a timeout for the flash plugin response) > > >> > >> > > >> > >> For now maybe I can try some flash debagger to try to debug this. > > >> > >> > > >> > >> Best regards, > > >> > >> Irina. > > >> > >> > > >> > >> On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 12:57 PM, [email protected] > > >> > >> <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > I think the issue has been reviewed. > > >> > >> > So we can be sure that the codec change in the codec is not an > > >> issue. > > >> > >> > Maybe we can debug the crashes a bit more before we start the > > vote. > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > @Irina Thanks for the Tests! > > >> > >> > Can you please check those questions > > >> > >> > A) What OS and flash player Version and browser was that? > > >> > >> > B) When did the crash happen exactly? > > >> > >> > C) Did the Plugin crash in terms of: > > >> > >> > 1) showing a dialog that a script is slowing down? > > >> > >> > 2) Browser replaces complete Flash Applet and shows message > like > > >> > "player > > >> > >> > crashed" so that also you need to restart the Browser > > >> > >> > 3) Player freezes and no more clicks possible? > > >> > >> > D) Is there a screenshot from such a crash somewhere? > > >> > >> > E) Is there something is the servers log when the crash > happens? > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > Did the crash happen always at a certain user action (B) might > be > > >> the > > >> > >> most > > >> > >> > important question. > > >> > >> > But it is also not clear to me yet what kind of crash we are > > >> talking > > >> > >> about. > > >> > >> > Flash Player crash can have so many different meanings. > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > Thanks! > > >> > >> > Sebastian > > >> > >> > Am 14.03.2013 02:43 schrieb "Maxim Solodovnik" < > > >> [email protected] > > >> > >: > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > It seems like we have proof swf11+h264 not causing > performance > > >> > >> > degradation > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > @Sebastian what do you think, is it time for RC2? > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 7:56 PM, Alexei Fedotov < > > >> > >> > [email protected]>wrote: > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > >> Great job, Irina! > > >> > >> > >> Thanks for digging this out. > > >> > >> > >> -- > > >> > >> > >> With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями, > > >> > >> > >> Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов, > > >> > >> > >> http://dataved.ru/ > > >> > >> > >> +7 916 562 8095 > > >> > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 4:28 PM, Irina Arkhipets > > >> > >> > >> <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > >> > >> > Hi All, > > >> > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > >> > I investigated flash plugin crashes today and would like > to > > >> share > > >> > >> some > > >> > >> > >> > results. > > >> > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > >> > First of all, crash happens both with SWF10 and SWF 11. It > > >> seems > > >> > >> like > > >> > >> > >> the > > >> > >> > >> > problem is reproducible with H263, H264 1.2 and H264 5.1. > > >> > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > >> > Actually, I haven't noticed significant CPU usage > > degradation > > >> for > > >> > >> H264 > > >> > >> > >> in > > >> > >> > >> > compare with H263 - it always was about 50-70% when I > enter > > >> > >> > OpenMeetings > > >> > >> > >> > room. The same is true about the memory usage. > > >> > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > >> > I was able to get the crash report in Mozilla, however for > > now > > >> > >> don't > > >> > >> > see > > >> > >> > >> > any info which can help me there. > > >> > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > >> > Tested environment was: Windows XP + Mozilla FireFox 19.0 > + > > >> flash > > >> > >> > player > > >> > >> > >> > 11.5.502.146. Tested server was demo.dataved.ru, there > were > > >> two > > >> > >> users > > >> > >> > >> with > > >> > >> > >> > videos (1 with big window and the other with normal) in > the > > >> room > > >> > + > > >> > >> me > > >> > >> > >> with > > >> > >> > >> > normal window. > > >> > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > >> > For now anybody can try different cases on > > >> > >> > >> > http://demo.dataved.ru/openmeetings and get own > expression. > > >> > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > >> > Below are the links which can be tested and my today > results > > >> for > > >> > >> each > > >> > >> > of > > >> > >> > >> > them: > > >> > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > >> > - > > >> > >> > > > >> http://demo.dataved.ru/openmeetings/?swf=main.as3.swf10.swf&junk=666- > > >> > >> > >> > SWF10 + H263. Crashed 3 times from 10. > > >> > >> > >> > - > > >> > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > >> > > > >> > > > http://demo.dataved.ru/openmeetings/?swf=main.as3.swf11.h263.swf&junk=666- > > >> > >> > >> > SWF11 + H263. Crashed 0 times from 10. > > >> > >> > >> > - > > >> > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > >> > > > >> > > > http://demo.dataved.ru/openmeetings/?swf=main.as3.swf11.h264_1_2.swf&junk=666- > > >> > >> > >> > SWF11 + H264 1.2. Crashed 2 times from 10. > > >> > >> > >> > - > > >> > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > >> > > > >> > > > http://demo.dataved.ru/openmeetings/?swf=main.as3.swf11.h264_5_1.swf&junk=666- > > >> > >> > >> > SWF11 + H264 5/1/ Crashed 1 times from 10. > > >> > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > >> > Best regards, > > >> > >> > >> > Irina. > > >> > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > >> > On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 5:02 PM, Maxim Solodovnik < > > >> > >> > [email protected] > > >> > >> > >> >wrote: > > >> > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > >> >> that is definitely something not readable :( > > >> > >> > >> >> I can see the word "static" in the generated code :) this > > is > > >> > >> global > > >> > >> > >> >> variables :))) > > >> > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 4:57 PM, [email protected] < > > >> > >> > >> >> [email protected]> wrote: > > >> > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> > just for consideration, > > >> > >> > >> >> > attached is the current AS3 that OpenLaszlo generates. > > >> > >> > >> >> > > > >> > >> > >> >> > > > >> > >> > >> >> > > > >> > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > >> > > > >> > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/download/attachments/27836308/lzswf9.tar.gz > > >> > >> > >> >> > > > >> > >> > >> >> > Sebastian > > >> > >> > >> >> > > > >> > >> > >> >> > > > >> > >> > >> >> > 2013/3/13 Maxim Solodovnik <[email protected]> > > >> > >> > >> >> > > > >> > >> > >> >> >> I thought maybe it will be simple to convert swf10 > > folder > > >> of > > >> > >> our > > >> > >> > >> sources > > >> > >> > >> >> >> + I would like "someone else" will handle it :)))) > > >> > >> > >> >> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 4:38 PM, > [email protected]< > > >> > >> > >> >> >> [email protected]> wrote: > > >> > >> > >> >> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> Sorry but that is useless. > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> The AS3 code that OpenLaszlo compiles is not human > > >> readable. > > >> > >> It > > >> > >> > is > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> generated into some tmp directory. > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> You can search on your disc for a file called > > >> > >> > LZC_COMPILER_OPTIONS > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> That should be into the same directory as the actual > > AS3 > > >> > >> files. > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> The thing is that there are of course some high level > > >> > >> > similarities. > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> However there are also high level similarities > between > > >> AS3 > > >> > and > > >> > >> > >> HTML5. > > >> > >> > >> >> For > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> example an ActionScript3 "Sprite" is nearly the same > as > > >> an > > >> > >> HTML > > >> > >> > >> "div" > > >> > >> > >> >> or > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> maybe "span" but you can really translate those > things > > >> just > > >> > >> and > > >> > >> > >> expect > > >> > >> > >> >> the > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> functionality is the same. > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> The entire notation in MXML is different, same about > > the > > >> > >> script > > >> > >> > >> blogs. > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> A script blog in openlaszlo looks like: > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> var zxac = 3; > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> in AS it would look like: > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> var zxac:int = 3; > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> No matter how you do it, you will have to go through > > >> every > > >> > >> file, > > >> > >> > >> debug > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> every line of code, understand the logic, convert it > to > > >> > MXML, > > >> > >> > test > > >> > >> > >> it. > > >> > >> > >> >> And > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> some constructs of course won't translate that easy. > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> For example in Flex you can't create that simple a > > >> "global" > > >> > >> > >> pointer. > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> Like: canvas.myattribute or parent.myattribute > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> This simply won't compile. AS3 won't let you compile > > such > > >> > >> > >> pointers. You > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> need to pass the parameter into the object to access > > its > > >> > >> > >> attributes, or > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> pass the attribute inside of it. > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> So a lot of the things we do when having some > attribute > > >> in > > >> > the > > >> > >> > >> canvas > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> and pointing to them from various places in the app > ... > > >> it > > >> > >> simply > > >> > >> > >> >> doesn't > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> work in MXML. > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> So of course it depends on to what extend you plan to > > >> build > > >> > a > > >> > >> > Flex > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> client. Maybe just the SWF11 app converting to MXML > is > > an > > >> > >> option. > > >> > >> > >> But > > >> > >> > >> >> the > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> entire SWF8 app. I don't think so. Just too complex. > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> Sebastian > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> 2013/3/13 Alexei Fedotov <[email protected]> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> The files appear in some temporary directory. I > cannot > > >> > >> remember > > >> > >> > >> where > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> they are exactly. If you make an error when > embedding > > >> > action > > >> > >> > >> script > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> into openlaszlo (should be something on action > script > > >> > level, > > >> > >> xml > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> markup would break the preprocessor itself), you get > > in > > >> the > > >> > >> > error > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> message an exact pointer to the file where your > error > > is > > >> > put. > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> -- > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями, > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов, > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> http://dataved.ru/ > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> +7 916 562 8095 > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Maxim Solodovnik < > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> [email protected]> wrote: > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > @Alexey we currently using flex 4.5.0, 4.6.1 to > > create > > >> > >> > bytecode > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > "can be inspected/used" means autoconverted :) > > action > > >> > >> script > > >> > >> > >> instead > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> of > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > openlaszlo is also good :) > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > can you please tell me how this can be inspected? > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > @Sebastian I thought we use only > > >> > >> view/label/dataset/connection > > >> > >> > >> in > > >> > >> > >> >> our > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> swf10 > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > code .... all these primitives should be available > > in > > >> > MXML. > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 2:52 PM, Alexei Fedotov < > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> [email protected]> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > wrote: > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> @Max AS3 means action script > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> Modern OpenLaszlo compiles into AS3, these files > > can > > >> be > > >> > >> > >> inspected > > >> > >> > >> >> and > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> used instead of openlaszlo files. > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> Then standard Adobe tools create swf bytecode > from > > >> AS3. > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> -- > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями, > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов, > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> http://dataved.ru/ > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> +7 916 562 8095 > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 11:18 AM, > > >> [email protected] > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > MXML has certainly advantages in the sense of > > wider > > >> > >> > >> acceptance > > >> > >> > >> >> and > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > better > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > development tools. > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > But it really means to build something from > > >> scratch. > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Sebastian > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > 2013/3/13 Maxim Solodovnik < > [email protected] > > > > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> @Alexey we currently using openlaszlo for > video > > >> (not > > >> > >> sure > > >> > >> > >> what > > >> > >> > >> >> do > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> you > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> mean > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> by AS3). Currently our version of video > > >> components is > > >> > >> > built > > >> > >> > >> >> using > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> flex.4.6.1 while actual version available for > > >> > download > > >> > >> is > > >> > >> > >> flex > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> 4.9.1. > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> I was hoping we will have less bugs and better > > >> > >> performance > > >> > >> > >> if we > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> will > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> use > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> MXML directly for our code. But this is just a > > >> guess. > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 2:00 PM, > > >> > [email protected]< > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> [email protected]> wrote: > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> You can simply disable h264 and build to > swf11. > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> It is only about the codec not about SWF > > formats. > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> I just compared and could not really find out > > if > > >> > there > > >> > >> > are > > >> > >> > >> big > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> differences. > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> However it is definitly good to really > compare > > >> the > > >> > >> > impacts > > >> > >> > >> on > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> CPU and > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> bandwidth usage when switching the Codec for > > >> video > > >> > >> > >> encoding. > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> It seemed to me like encoding with h264 is > > using > > >> a > > >> > >> second > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> process (on > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> OSX > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> that process is called WindowsServer). It > might > > >> be > > >> > >> that > > >> > >> > >> h264 > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> encoding > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> can > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> use some more system ressources. However... > all > > >> just > > >> > >> > >> guessing > > >> > >> > >> >> at > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> this > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> point. > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> Sebastian > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> 2013/3/13 Maxim Solodovnik < > > [email protected] > > >> > > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> Maybe we can add conversion task to the GSOC > > >> ideas? > > >> > >> do > > >> > >> > we > > >> > >> > >> need > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> it? > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> I don't see any problems with h264 > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> I'm going to build > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> 1) SWF11 with h264 support removed > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> 2) SWF11 with different h264 profile > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> 3) SWF10 > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> and compare > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> but i'm not expecting any major differences > :( > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 1:17 PM, > > >> > >> [email protected]< > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> [email protected]> wrote: > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> No there is no such conversion. You have to > > >> > rewrite > > >> > >> the > > >> > >> > >> LZX > > >> > >> > >> >> to > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> MXML > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> and > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> AS3 files. > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> What about the Video Codec? I don't think > it > > >> makes > > >> > >> > sense > > >> > >> > >> to > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> start a > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> RC2 > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> vote before this issue has been further > > >> analyzed. > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> Is there a given restriction that needs > h264? > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> Sebastian > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> 2013/3/13 Maxim Solodovnik < > > >> [email protected]> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> @Sebastian, maybe you know, is there any > > >> > >> possibility > > >> > >> > to > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> automatically/semi-automatically convert > our > > >> > swf10 > > >> > >> > >> sources > > >> > >> > >> >> to > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> "apache flex > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> xml"? Since Openlaszlo seems to be not > > >> actively > > >> > >> > >> developed > > >> > >> > >> >> and > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> flex > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> is now > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> part of Apache, maybe we can benefit from > > such > > >> > >> > >> conversion? > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:28 PM, Maxim > > >> > Solodovnik < > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> I have forwarded all missing messages > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:25 PM, > > >> > >> > [email protected]< > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> you wrote me without CC'ing Irina or the > > >> list > > >> > :) > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> I missed the 'reply all' button somehow. > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> Sebastian > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> 2013/3/12 Maxim Solodovnik < > > >> > [email protected] > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> this one > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OPENMEETINGS-559 > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> @Irina can you describe your problem > more > > >> > >> detailed? > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 3:46 PM, > > >> > >> > >> [email protected] < > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> We should simply do some tests to > > measure > > >> the > > >> > >> > actual > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> video with > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> h264 and the default Sorensen Codec. > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> Then we have some numbers. > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> What are the exact reports for "Flash > > >> Player > > >> > >> > >> crashing" ? > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> Sebastian > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> 2013/3/12 Maxim Solodovnik < > > >> > >> [email protected]> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> I can add switching H264 off, but I'm > > not > > >> > >> sure if > > >> > >> > >> this > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> is the > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> problem. > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Most claims are related to the > crashing > > >> > flash > > >> > >> in > > >> > >> > >> >> browser. > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Do you think this would help? > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 2:56 PM, > > >> > >> > >> [email protected]< > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry I did not meant default h323 I > > >> meant > > >> > >> the > > >> > >> > >> default > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sorenson Spark > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> < > > >> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorenson_Spark > > >> > >> > >> >> >(Sorenson > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> H.263) > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sebastian > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> 2013/3/12 [email protected] < > > >> > >> > >> >> [email protected]> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> h264 simply needs more computing > time. > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> AEC also is enabled (which needs > some > > >> > >> > percentages > > >> > >> > >> >> more > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> CPU > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> power then the previous > > >> implementation). > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Switching to later Flex SDK is > surely > > >> > >> desirable > > >> > >> > >> but > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> basically > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the performance is a Flash > > >> > >> > Player/VirtualMachine > > >> > >> > >> >> issue > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> not a > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Flash Compiler > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> issue. So as long as there is no > > Flash > > >> > >> Player > > >> > >> > 12 > > >> > >> > >> that > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> requires a later Flex > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> SDK it is unlikely that you will > gain > > >> > >> > performance > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> advantages. > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I think there is a hardware > > >> acceleration > > >> > for > > >> > >> > >> playback > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> of > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> h264 > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> video, but I have really no idea > > about > > >> > >> > producing > > >> > >> > >> h264 > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> in the > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> browser in > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> that context. > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> From my point of view the main > reason > > >> for > > >> > >> using > > >> > >> > >> h264 > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> is the > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> SIP > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> integration. For users that don't > use > > >> SIP > > >> > >> > >> integration > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> using > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> h264 will > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> simply just mean an annoying CPU > > usage. > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The case is different for AEC from > my > > >> > point > > >> > >> of > > >> > >> > >> view. > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> AEC > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> brings > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> enhancement for everybody > > immediately. > > >> And > > >> > >> the > > >> > >> > >> more > > >> > >> > >> >> of > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> CPU > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> that it uses is > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> only 3-4 % from my point of view. > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> So my preference would be to make > the > > >> > video > > >> > >> > >> codec use > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> the > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> standard h323. To be honest: Who > has > > >> ever > > >> > >> > >> complained > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> in the > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> last couple of > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> years about video quality? The > > >> discussion > > >> > is > > >> > >> > >> almost > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> always > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> about audio > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> delay, audio quality, micro echo, > bad > > >> > >> > >> microphones et > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> cetera > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> but actually > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> never about video quality. > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> And from what I have seen h264 also > > >> brings > > >> > >> no > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> improvements > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> in > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> terms of bandwidth usage. > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> h264 could be available via > > >> configuration > > >> > >> (or > > >> > >> > to > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> enable SIP > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> integration), but h323 should be > used > > >> by > > >> > >> > default. > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sebastian > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 2013/3/12 Maxim Solodovnik < > > >> > >> > [email protected] > > >> > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello Raju, Sebastian, > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> according to > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OPENMEETINGS-559and > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> various user reports (including > mail > > >> from > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> Sebastian[1]) > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Main code changes were: adding > > >> > >> > >> EnchancedMicrophone > > >> > >> > >> >> and > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> switch > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to h264 > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> According to the Google switching > to > > >> h264 > > >> > >> can > > >> > >> > >> cause > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> higher > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> CPU > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> usage. > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can this be fixed by changing > > >> H264Level? > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (currently H264Level.LEVEL_1_2 is > > >> used) > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe you can us understand were > > >> > >> > >> >> performance/stability > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> degradation caused by code > changes? > > Or > > >> > >> maybe > > >> > >> > it > > >> > >> > >> is > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> because > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of Flex4.6.0? > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can stability be improved by > > >> switching to > > >> > >> > >> Flex4.9.1? > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks in advance for your help > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> [1] > > >> > >> > >> http://markmail.org/message/2el63qarsjmbvfyy > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> < > > >> > >> > http://markmail.org/message/2el63qarsjmbvfyy > > >> > >> > >> >-- > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> WBR > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maxim aka solomax > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sebastian Wagner > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.webbase-design.de > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sebastian Wagner > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.webbase-design.de > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> -- > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> WBR > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Maxim aka solomax > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> -- > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> Sebastian Wagner > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.webbase-design.de > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> [email protected] > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> -- > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> WBR > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Maxim aka solomax > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> -- > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> Sebastian Wagner > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> http://www.webbase-design.de > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> [email protected] > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> -- > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> WBR > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> Maxim aka solomax > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> -- > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> WBR > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> Maxim aka solomax > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> -- > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> Sebastian Wagner > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> http://www.webbase-design.de > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> [email protected] > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> -- > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> WBR > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> Maxim aka solomax > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> -- > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> Sebastian Wagner > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> http://www.webbase-design.de > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> [email protected] > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> -- > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> WBR > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> Maxim aka solomax > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > -- > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Sebastian Wagner > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > http://www.webbase-design.de > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > http://www.wagner-sebastian.com > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > [email protected] > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > -- > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > WBR > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > Maxim aka solomax > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> -- > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> Sebastian Wagner > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> http://www.webbase-design.de > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> [email protected] > > >> > >> > >> >> >>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> >> -- > > >> > >> > >> >> >> WBR > > >> > >> > >> >> >> Maxim aka solomax > > >> > >> > >> >> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> > > > >> > >> > >> >> > > > >> > >> > >> >> > > > >> > >> > >> >> > -- > > >> > >> > >> >> > Sebastian Wagner > > >> > >> > >> >> > https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock > > >> > >> > >> >> > http://www.webbase-design.de > > >> > >> > >> >> > http://www.wagner-sebastian.com > > >> > >> > >> >> > [email protected] > > >> > >> > >> >> > > > >> > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> -- > > >> > >> > >> >> WBR > > >> > >> > >> >> Maxim aka solomax > > >> > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > -- > > >> > >> > > WBR > > >> > >> > > Maxim aka solomax > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -- > > >> > WBR > > >> > Maxim aka solomax > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> Sebastian Wagner > > >> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock > > >> http://www.webbase-design.de > > >> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com > > >> [email protected] > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Sebastian Wagner > https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock > http://www.webbase-design.de > http://www.wagner-sebastian.com > [email protected] >
