Hopefully the 26th tryout is no fail :) Glad we could track this down to be an environment issue.
It would be nice to know if the hardware acceleration has an effect on the broadcasting (encoding) at all. I am pretty sure it has an impact on viewing / decoding. But I am not so sure for broadcasting/encoding video. Sebastian 2013/3/14 Irina Arkhipets <[email protected]> > Seems like it works for me. > > At least, after the ffdshow update I was able to enter/exit the room 25 > times without crash. > > I'll look for this a couple of days. And ask my client who claimed about > the problem to do the same things and additionally try to turn the hardware > acceleration off. > > Thank you, > Irina. > > On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 3:28 PM, Irina Arkhipets > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > Sebastian, > > > > It seems like you are correct and this depends on configuration. > > > > I've received a reply from Mozilla about my bug: > > ... > > According to the previous stack trace, it's not a Firefox bug neither a > > Flash > > one, but a FFDShow one. You are using version 1.1.3761.0 while the > current > > one > > is 1.3.4500. Update FFDShow: > > http://ffdshow-tryout.sourceforge.net/download.php > > Then report back. > > ... > > > > You can track this here: > > https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=850614 > > > > Will try their suggestion and inform you about the result. > > > > Best regards, > > Irina. > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 3:03 PM, [email protected] < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > >> After all this sounds a lot like an issue with the webcam, microphone or > >> driver. > >> > >> The moment when your are in the conference, in the device settings and > >> click on the button > >> "start conference" what basically happens is that you set your > audio/video > >> settings and Flash access your webcam. > >> > >> So basically this is an environment issues. It could be also a > combination > >> of a Flash Player + certain device issues. > >> I bet the same issue happens for those users if they use any other Flash > >> application that requires access to cam/mic. > >> > >> What kind of microphone and camera are you using ? > >> Did you have maybe some driver that you can update or download for those > >> devices for your OS ? > >> > >> Sebastian > >> > >> > >> 2013/3/14 Maxim Solodovnik <[email protected]> > >> > >> > @Alexei unfortunately this would not help since we have no useful info > >> > after such crash :( > >> > > >> > > >> > On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 2:33 PM, Alexei Fedotov < > >> [email protected] > >> > >wrote: > >> > > >> > > @Maxim, how difficult is to add a button for debug which would > >> start/quit > >> > > a conference in a loop to make the bug simpler to reproduce? > >> > > 14.03.2013 10:56 пользователь "Irina Arkhipets" < > >> > [email protected]> > >> > > написал: > >> > > > >> > > Hi Sebastian, > >> > >> > >> > >> A). I use Win XP + FF 19.0 + flash 11.6.602.180. And Yulia have the > >> same > >> > >> problems on W7 + GH + 11.6.602.171. > >> > >> > >> > >> B). Crash happens when I am entering the room after I click "Start > >> > >> Conference" in the "Choose device" screen. > >> > >> > >> > >> C). Plugin crashes in the following way: I get > "plugin-container.exe" > >> > >> application error window with the possibility to click OK to > >> terminate > >> > and > >> > >> click CANCEL to debug. If I click OK I see a grey screen with the > >> "Adobe > >> > >> Flash plugin crashed" message and the "Send report" button. I need > to > >> > >> reload the page to continue work. > >> > >> > >> > >> D). It seems like it's not possible to attach files when you write > to > >> > >> mailing list, so I'll will send you a screen shot personally. I've > >> also > >> > >> found a way to catch a report which is sent if I click the "Send > >> report" > >> > >> button - will send it to you too. > >> > >> > >> > >> E). Nothing special in the server log and browser console > >> > >> > >> > >> My additional notes: > >> > >> > >> > >> - Crash is reproducible if I run FireFox in safe mode. > >> > >> > >> > >> - Crash report reads: "Crash Reason > >> EXCEPTION_ACCESS_VIOLATION_WRITE". > >> > I > >> > >> read in Internet that it can happen because of some video driver > >> > problems > >> > >> if hardware acceleration is turmed on, however I've just turned it > >> off > >> > >> without improving > >> > >> > >> > >> - I've filed bug against Mozilla and send them some info and crash > >> > report > >> > >> - > >> > >> maybe they'll provide some advice > >> > >> > >> > >> - Setting dom.ipc.plugins.timeoutSecs to -1 in browser settings > does > >> not > >> > >> help (this is a timeout for the flash plugin response) > >> > >> > >> > >> For now maybe I can try some flash debagger to try to debug this. > >> > >> > >> > >> Best regards, > >> > >> Irina. > >> > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 12:57 PM, [email protected] > >> > >> <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> > I think the issue has been reviewed. > >> > >> > So we can be sure that the codec change in the codec is not an > >> issue. > >> > >> > Maybe we can debug the crashes a bit more before we start the > vote. > >> > >> > > >> > >> > @Irina Thanks for the Tests! > >> > >> > Can you please check those questions > >> > >> > A) What OS and flash player Version and browser was that? > >> > >> > B) When did the crash happen exactly? > >> > >> > C) Did the Plugin crash in terms of: > >> > >> > 1) showing a dialog that a script is slowing down? > >> > >> > 2) Browser replaces complete Flash Applet and shows message like > >> > "player > >> > >> > crashed" so that also you need to restart the Browser > >> > >> > 3) Player freezes and no more clicks possible? > >> > >> > D) Is there a screenshot from such a crash somewhere? > >> > >> > E) Is there something is the servers log when the crash happens? > >> > >> > > >> > >> > Did the crash happen always at a certain user action (B) might be > >> the > >> > >> most > >> > >> > important question. > >> > >> > But it is also not clear to me yet what kind of crash we are > >> talking > >> > >> about. > >> > >> > Flash Player crash can have so many different meanings. > >> > >> > > >> > >> > Thanks! > >> > >> > Sebastian > >> > >> > Am 14.03.2013 02:43 schrieb "Maxim Solodovnik" < > >> [email protected] > >> > >: > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > It seems like we have proof swf11+h264 not causing performance > >> > >> > degradation > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > @Sebastian what do you think, is it time for RC2? > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 7:56 PM, Alexei Fedotov < > >> > >> > [email protected]>wrote: > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > >> Great job, Irina! > >> > >> > >> Thanks for digging this out. > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> > >> With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями, > >> > >> > >> Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов, > >> > >> > >> http://dataved.ru/ > >> > >> > >> +7 916 562 8095 > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 4:28 PM, Irina Arkhipets > >> > >> > >> <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> > >> > Hi All, > >> > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > I investigated flash plugin crashes today and would like to > >> share > >> > >> some > >> > >> > >> > results. > >> > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > First of all, crash happens both with SWF10 and SWF 11. It > >> seems > >> > >> like > >> > >> > >> the > >> > >> > >> > problem is reproducible with H263, H264 1.2 and H264 5.1. > >> > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > Actually, I haven't noticed significant CPU usage > degradation > >> for > >> > >> H264 > >> > >> > >> in > >> > >> > >> > compare with H263 - it always was about 50-70% when I enter > >> > >> > OpenMeetings > >> > >> > >> > room. The same is true about the memory usage. > >> > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > I was able to get the crash report in Mozilla, however for > now > >> > >> don't > >> > >> > see > >> > >> > >> > any info which can help me there. > >> > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > Tested environment was: Windows XP + Mozilla FireFox 19.0 + > >> flash > >> > >> > player > >> > >> > >> > 11.5.502.146. Tested server was demo.dataved.ru, there were > >> two > >> > >> users > >> > >> > >> with > >> > >> > >> > videos (1 with big window and the other with normal) in the > >> room > >> > + > >> > >> me > >> > >> > >> with > >> > >> > >> > normal window. > >> > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > For now anybody can try different cases on > >> > >> > >> > http://demo.dataved.ru/openmeetings and get own expression. > >> > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > Below are the links which can be tested and my today results > >> for > >> > >> each > >> > >> > of > >> > >> > >> > them: > >> > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > - > >> > >> > > >> http://demo.dataved.ru/openmeetings/?swf=main.as3.swf10.swf&junk=666- > >> > >> > >> > SWF10 + H263. Crashed 3 times from 10. > >> > >> > >> > - > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > > >> > http://demo.dataved.ru/openmeetings/?swf=main.as3.swf11.h263.swf&junk=666- > >> > >> > >> > SWF11 + H263. Crashed 0 times from 10. > >> > >> > >> > - > >> > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > > >> > http://demo.dataved.ru/openmeetings/?swf=main.as3.swf11.h264_1_2.swf&junk=666- > >> > >> > >> > SWF11 + H264 1.2. Crashed 2 times from 10. > >> > >> > >> > - > >> > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > > >> > http://demo.dataved.ru/openmeetings/?swf=main.as3.swf11.h264_5_1.swf&junk=666- > >> > >> > >> > SWF11 + H264 5/1/ Crashed 1 times from 10. > >> > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > Best regards, > >> > >> > >> > Irina. > >> > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 5:02 PM, Maxim Solodovnik < > >> > >> > [email protected] > >> > >> > >> >wrote: > >> > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> >> that is definitely something not readable :( > >> > >> > >> >> I can see the word "static" in the generated code :) this > is > >> > >> global > >> > >> > >> >> variables :))) > >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 4:57 PM, [email protected] < > >> > >> > >> >> [email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> > just for consideration, > >> > >> > >> >> > attached is the current AS3 that OpenLaszlo generates. > >> > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > > >> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/download/attachments/27836308/lzswf9.tar.gz > >> > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> > Sebastian > >> > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> > 2013/3/13 Maxim Solodovnik <[email protected]> > >> > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> >> I thought maybe it will be simple to convert swf10 > folder > >> of > >> > >> our > >> > >> > >> sources > >> > >> > >> >> >> + I would like "someone else" will handle it :)))) > >> > >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 4:38 PM, [email protected]< > >> > >> > >> >> >> [email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> Sorry but that is useless. > >> > >> > >> >> >>> The AS3 code that OpenLaszlo compiles is not human > >> readable. > >> > >> It > >> > >> > is > >> > >> > >> >> >>> generated into some tmp directory. > >> > >> > >> >> >>> You can search on your disc for a file called > >> > >> > LZC_COMPILER_OPTIONS > >> > >> > >> >> >>> That should be into the same directory as the actual > AS3 > >> > >> files. > >> > >> > >> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> The thing is that there are of course some high level > >> > >> > similarities. > >> > >> > >> >> >>> However there are also high level similarities between > >> AS3 > >> > and > >> > >> > >> HTML5. > >> > >> > >> >> For > >> > >> > >> >> >>> example an ActionScript3 "Sprite" is nearly the same as > >> an > >> > >> HTML > >> > >> > >> "div" > >> > >> > >> >> or > >> > >> > >> >> >>> maybe "span" but you can really translate those things > >> just > >> > >> and > >> > >> > >> expect > >> > >> > >> >> the > >> > >> > >> >> >>> functionality is the same. > >> > >> > >> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> The entire notation in MXML is different, same about > the > >> > >> script > >> > >> > >> blogs. > >> > >> > >> >> >>> A script blog in openlaszlo looks like: > >> > >> > >> >> >>> var zxac = 3; > >> > >> > >> >> >>> in AS it would look like: > >> > >> > >> >> >>> var zxac:int = 3; > >> > >> > >> >> >>> No matter how you do it, you will have to go through > >> every > >> > >> file, > >> > >> > >> debug > >> > >> > >> >> >>> every line of code, understand the logic, convert it to > >> > MXML, > >> > >> > test > >> > >> > >> it. > >> > >> > >> >> And > >> > >> > >> >> >>> some constructs of course won't translate that easy. > >> > >> > >> >> >>> For example in Flex you can't create that simple a > >> "global" > >> > >> > >> pointer. > >> > >> > >> >> >>> Like: canvas.myattribute or parent.myattribute > >> > >> > >> >> >>> This simply won't compile. AS3 won't let you compile > such > >> > >> > >> pointers. You > >> > >> > >> >> >>> need to pass the parameter into the object to access > its > >> > >> > >> attributes, or > >> > >> > >> >> >>> pass the attribute inside of it. > >> > >> > >> >> >>> So a lot of the things we do when having some attribute > >> in > >> > the > >> > >> > >> canvas > >> > >> > >> >> >>> and pointing to them from various places in the app ... > >> it > >> > >> simply > >> > >> > >> >> doesn't > >> > >> > >> >> >>> work in MXML. > >> > >> > >> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> So of course it depends on to what extend you plan to > >> build > >> > a > >> > >> > Flex > >> > >> > >> >> >>> client. Maybe just the SWF11 app converting to MXML is > an > >> > >> option. > >> > >> > >> But > >> > >> > >> >> the > >> > >> > >> >> >>> entire SWF8 app. I don't think so. Just too complex. > >> > >> > >> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> Sebastian > >> > >> > >> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> 2013/3/13 Alexei Fedotov <[email protected]> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> The files appear in some temporary directory. I cannot > >> > >> remember > >> > >> > >> where > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> they are exactly. If you make an error when embedding > >> > action > >> > >> > >> script > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> into openlaszlo (should be something on action script > >> > level, > >> > >> xml > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> markup would break the preprocessor itself), you get > in > >> the > >> > >> > error > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> message an exact pointer to the file where your error > is > >> > put. > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> -- > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями, > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов, > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> http://dataved.ru/ > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> +7 916 562 8095 > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Maxim Solodovnik < > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> [email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > @Alexey we currently using flex 4.5.0, 4.6.1 to > create > >> > >> > bytecode > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > "can be inspected/used" means autoconverted :) > action > >> > >> script > >> > >> > >> instead > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> of > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > openlaszlo is also good :) > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > can you please tell me how this can be inspected? > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > @Sebastian I thought we use only > >> > >> view/label/dataset/connection > >> > >> > >> in > >> > >> > >> >> our > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> swf10 > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > code .... all these primitives should be available > in > >> > MXML. > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 2:52 PM, Alexei Fedotov < > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> [email protected]> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > wrote: > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> @Max AS3 means action script > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> Modern OpenLaszlo compiles into AS3, these files > can > >> be > >> > >> > >> inspected > >> > >> > >> >> and > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> used instead of openlaszlo files. > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> Then standard Adobe tools create swf bytecode from > >> AS3. > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> -- > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями, > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов, > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> http://dataved.ru/ > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> +7 916 562 8095 > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 11:18 AM, > >> [email protected] > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > MXML has certainly advantages in the sense of > wider > >> > >> > >> acceptance > >> > >> > >> >> and > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > better > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > development tools. > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > But it really means to build something from > >> scratch. > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Sebastian > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > 2013/3/13 Maxim Solodovnik <[email protected] > > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> @Alexey we currently using openlaszlo for video > >> (not > >> > >> sure > >> > >> > >> what > >> > >> > >> >> do > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> you > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> mean > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> by AS3). Currently our version of video > >> components is > >> > >> > built > >> > >> > >> >> using > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> flex.4.6.1 while actual version available for > >> > download > >> > >> is > >> > >> > >> flex > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> 4.9.1. > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> I was hoping we will have less bugs and better > >> > >> performance > >> > >> > >> if we > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> will > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> use > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> MXML directly for our code. But this is just a > >> guess. > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 2:00 PM, > >> > [email protected]< > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> [email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> You can simply disable h264 and build to swf11. > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> It is only about the codec not about SWF > formats. > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> I just compared and could not really find out > if > >> > there > >> > >> > are > >> > >> > >> big > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> differences. > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> However it is definitly good to really compare > >> the > >> > >> > impacts > >> > >> > >> on > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> CPU and > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> bandwidth usage when switching the Codec for > >> video > >> > >> > >> encoding. > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> It seemed to me like encoding with h264 is > using > >> a > >> > >> second > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> process (on > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> OSX > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> that process is called WindowsServer). It might > >> be > >> > >> that > >> > >> > >> h264 > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> encoding > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> can > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> use some more system ressources. However... all > >> just > >> > >> > >> guessing > >> > >> > >> >> at > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> this > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> point. > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> Sebastian > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> 2013/3/13 Maxim Solodovnik < > [email protected] > >> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> Maybe we can add conversion task to the GSOC > >> ideas? > >> > >> do > >> > >> > we > >> > >> > >> need > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> it? > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> I don't see any problems with h264 > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> I'm going to build > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> 1) SWF11 with h264 support removed > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> 2) SWF11 with different h264 profile > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> 3) SWF10 > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> and compare > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> but i'm not expecting any major differences :( > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 1:17 PM, > >> > >> [email protected]< > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> [email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> No there is no such conversion. You have to > >> > rewrite > >> > >> the > >> > >> > >> LZX > >> > >> > >> >> to > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> MXML > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> and > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> AS3 files. > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> What about the Video Codec? I don't think it > >> makes > >> > >> > sense > >> > >> > >> to > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> start a > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> RC2 > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> vote before this issue has been further > >> analyzed. > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> Is there a given restriction that needs h264? > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> Sebastian > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> 2013/3/13 Maxim Solodovnik < > >> [email protected]> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> @Sebastian, maybe you know, is there any > >> > >> possibility > >> > >> > to > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> automatically/semi-automatically convert our > >> > swf10 > >> > >> > >> sources > >> > >> > >> >> to > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> "apache flex > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> xml"? Since Openlaszlo seems to be not > >> actively > >> > >> > >> developed > >> > >> > >> >> and > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> flex > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> is now > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> part of Apache, maybe we can benefit from > such > >> > >> > >> conversion? > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:28 PM, Maxim > >> > Solodovnik < > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> I have forwarded all missing messages > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:25 PM, > >> > >> > [email protected]< > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> you wrote me without CC'ing Irina or the > >> list > >> > :) > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> I missed the 'reply all' button somehow. > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> Sebastian > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> 2013/3/12 Maxim Solodovnik < > >> > [email protected] > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> this one > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OPENMEETINGS-559 > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> @Irina can you describe your problem more > >> > >> detailed? > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 3:46 PM, > >> > >> > >> [email protected] < > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> We should simply do some tests to > measure > >> the > >> > >> > actual > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> video with > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> h264 and the default Sorensen Codec. > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> Then we have some numbers. > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> What are the exact reports for "Flash > >> Player > >> > >> > >> crashing" ? > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> Sebastian > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> 2013/3/12 Maxim Solodovnik < > >> > >> [email protected]> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> I can add switching H264 off, but I'm > not > >> > >> sure if > >> > >> > >> this > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> is the > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> problem. > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Most claims are related to the crashing > >> > flash > >> > >> in > >> > >> > >> >> browser. > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Do you think this would help? > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 2:56 PM, > >> > >> > >> [email protected]< > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry I did not meant default h323 I > >> meant > >> > >> the > >> > >> > >> default > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sorenson Spark > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> < > >> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorenson_Spark > >> > >> > >> >> >(Sorenson > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> H.263) > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sebastian > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> 2013/3/12 [email protected] < > >> > >> > >> >> [email protected]> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> h264 simply needs more computing time. > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> AEC also is enabled (which needs some > >> > >> > percentages > >> > >> > >> >> more > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> CPU > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> power then the previous > >> implementation). > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Switching to later Flex SDK is surely > >> > >> desirable > >> > >> > >> but > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> basically > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the performance is a Flash > >> > >> > Player/VirtualMachine > >> > >> > >> >> issue > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> not a > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Flash Compiler > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> issue. So as long as there is no > Flash > >> > >> Player > >> > >> > 12 > >> > >> > >> that > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> requires a later Flex > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> SDK it is unlikely that you will gain > >> > >> > performance > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> advantages. > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I think there is a hardware > >> acceleration > >> > for > >> > >> > >> playback > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> of > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> h264 > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> video, but I have really no idea > about > >> > >> > producing > >> > >> > >> h264 > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> in the > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> browser in > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> that context. > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> From my point of view the main reason > >> for > >> > >> using > >> > >> > >> h264 > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> is the > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> SIP > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> integration. For users that don't use > >> SIP > >> > >> > >> integration > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> using > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> h264 will > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> simply just mean an annoying CPU > usage. > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The case is different for AEC from my > >> > point > >> > >> of > >> > >> > >> view. > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> AEC > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> brings > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> enhancement for everybody > immediately. > >> And > >> > >> the > >> > >> > >> more > >> > >> > >> >> of > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> CPU > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> that it uses is > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> only 3-4 % from my point of view. > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> So my preference would be to make the > >> > video > >> > >> > >> codec use > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> the > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> standard h323. To be honest: Who has > >> ever > >> > >> > >> complained > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> in the > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> last couple of > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> years about video quality? The > >> discussion > >> > is > >> > >> > >> almost > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> always > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> about audio > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> delay, audio quality, micro echo, bad > >> > >> > >> microphones et > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> cetera > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> but actually > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> never about video quality. > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> And from what I have seen h264 also > >> brings > >> > >> no > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> improvements > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> in > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> terms of bandwidth usage. > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> h264 could be available via > >> configuration > >> > >> (or > >> > >> > to > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> enable SIP > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> integration), but h323 should be used > >> by > >> > >> > default. > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sebastian > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 2013/3/12 Maxim Solodovnik < > >> > >> > [email protected] > >> > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello Raju, Sebastian, > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> according to > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OPENMEETINGS-559and > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> various user reports (including mail > >> from > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> Sebastian[1]) > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Main code changes were: adding > >> > >> > >> EnchancedMicrophone > >> > >> > >> >> and > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> switch > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to h264 > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> According to the Google switching to > >> h264 > >> > >> can > >> > >> > >> cause > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> higher > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> CPU > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> usage. > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can this be fixed by changing > >> H264Level? > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (currently H264Level.LEVEL_1_2 is > >> used) > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe you can us understand were > >> > >> > >> >> performance/stability > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> degradation caused by code changes? > Or > >> > >> maybe > >> > >> > it > >> > >> > >> is > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> because > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of Flex4.6.0? > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can stability be improved by > >> switching to > >> > >> > >> Flex4.9.1? > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks in advance for your help > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> [1] > >> > >> > >> http://markmail.org/message/2el63qarsjmbvfyy > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> < > >> > >> > http://markmail.org/message/2el63qarsjmbvfyy > >> > >> > >> >-- > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> WBR > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maxim aka solomax > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sebastian Wagner > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.webbase-design.de > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sebastian Wagner > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.webbase-design.de > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> -- > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> WBR > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Maxim aka solomax > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> -- > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> Sebastian Wagner > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.webbase-design.de > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> [email protected] > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> -- > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> WBR > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Maxim aka solomax > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> -- > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> Sebastian Wagner > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> http://www.webbase-design.de > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> [email protected] > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> -- > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> WBR > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> Maxim aka solomax > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> -- > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> WBR > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> Maxim aka solomax > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> -- > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> Sebastian Wagner > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> http://www.webbase-design.de > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> [email protected] > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> -- > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> WBR > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> Maxim aka solomax > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> -- > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> Sebastian Wagner > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> http://www.webbase-design.de > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> [email protected] > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> -- > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> WBR > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> Maxim aka solomax > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > -- > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Sebastian Wagner > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > http://www.webbase-design.de > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > http://www.wagner-sebastian.com > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > [email protected] > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > -- > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > WBR > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > Maxim aka solomax > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> -- > >> > >> > >> >> >>> Sebastian Wagner > >> > >> > >> >> >>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock > >> > >> > >> >> >>> http://www.webbase-design.de > >> > >> > >> >> >>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com > >> > >> > >> >> >>> [email protected] > >> > >> > >> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> -- > >> > >> > >> >> >> WBR > >> > >> > >> >> >> Maxim aka solomax > >> > >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> > -- > >> > >> > >> >> > Sebastian Wagner > >> > >> > >> >> > https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock > >> > >> > >> >> > http://www.webbase-design.de > >> > >> > >> >> > http://www.wagner-sebastian.com > >> > >> > >> >> > [email protected] > >> > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> -- > >> > >> > >> >> WBR > >> > >> > >> >> Maxim aka solomax > >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > -- > >> > >> > > WBR > >> > >> > > Maxim aka solomax > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > WBR > >> > Maxim aka solomax > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Sebastian Wagner > >> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock > >> http://www.webbase-design.de > >> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com > >> [email protected] > >> > > > > > -- Sebastian Wagner https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock http://www.webbase-design.de http://www.wagner-sebastian.com [email protected]
