The best thing you can do to start is begin having discussions out on your dev@ list instead of face to face discussion. It will require discipline and add time to decision making, but it has the effect of inviting potential community members into your team.
After you have done that for a few weeks, let me circle back and suggest some ways to use social media to attract potential users and contributors outside of Kakao. On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 8:02 AM, Jaesang Kim <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi. > > As Hyunsung and DOYUNG mentioned, we need to work in the Apache way. We > have to discuss and make a decision in the mailing list. > > But, we don't need to make the Kakao repo. as read-only. Because the Kakao > repo is not related to Apache. In this mailing, we need to deal with > related issues on Apache S2Graph. > > And I think that making an issue on Jira and replying to it also acceptable > way of Apache. Because the jira bot send the message to our mailing list. > If we can discuss and make a decision in *the open place* like the mailing > or Jira, I think that it is also Apache way. > > Thanks. > > > 2016년 3월 18일 (금) 오후 12:24, DO YUNG YOON <[email protected]>님이 작성: > > > Hi. > > > > I have to admit that comitters at Kakao had face-to-face discussion and > > these discussions have not been transparent to community. > > > > I think I am the one who screw up here, since I have created issues and > ask > > others to review my issues f2f. Let me explain my mistakes here. > > > > There has been lots of code changes on kakao repo since initial code > import > > and I wanted apache repo to catch up this changes. > > Honestly I felt bad on initial code base since it is not organized at all > > and there has been critical bug, so I was in a hurry to conceal my bad > > code. > > In this catch up period, most of committers at Kakao already know what > each > > issues are about so there is no explanations and I think this was worst > > part. > > > > We should first set up milestones first, then list up not only issues > that > > has been changed at Kakao repo but also what we will work on. Then we had > > to discuss releases and what changes will be included in our release. > > Missing this process make others to see where we are heading to and hard > to > > understand what is going on. > > > > Finally, each issues could be differently resolved, not the way they have > > resolved in Kakao repo. For each issue, I had to give explanation on how > > theses issues has been resolved first at Kakao and should discuss futhur > if > > there would be better idea. Missing this also make others express their > > idea hard and I totally agree just doing code review based on private > > discussion at company is not the right way. > > > > Basically, Apache git is not just kakao repo's backport, it should be > > master place, so here is what I am suggesting. > > > > Make kakao repo as read-only like Sergio suggested at the first, no more > > discussion on other place. if Kakao want to use s2graph, then they fork > > apache s2graph and all necessary changes for their service should go into > > forked repo(from apache). > > > > Completely indepent with Kakao, all committers at kakao should brought up > > all discussion and ideas into apache mailing list first. For each issue, > > maybe good idea at Kakao can be brought up and merged into apache or > better > > idea through discussion at mailing list can be finally merged, but > > important thing is we have to make our decision at mailing list, not > > face-to-face meeting. > > > > committers at Kakao, please give any opinion how we will work. > > > > Sergio, Luke. Thanks for point out this issue and please keep pointing > out > > if we are out of ASF way. > > > > Not sure if I can brought up all privately decided discussion, but I will > > try my best. I think we should start with most important discussions such > > as milestones, and release. > > > > On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 11:43 AM Hyunsung Jo <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > I understand where the concerns are coming from and frankly have to > admit > > > that Kakao members of the community are guilty as charged : ( > > > I can think of a few reasons of why the project is not up to par > > regarding > > > working in the Apache Way: > > > - committers having little development experience in ASF projects > > > - committers sharing the same office > > > - language barrier is an actual thing, too! > > > However, none the above reasons can be an excuse if S2Graph wants to > > become > > > a successful Apache project. > > > I can only speak for myself, but I'm confident that the committers are > > keen > > > believers in the Apache Way and solving this problem is a matter of > more > > > care and practice. > > > Thank you for your kind advise, Sergio and Luke. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Jo > > > > > > On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 8:14 AM Luke Han <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Same feeling I have too, there's few discussions for others to > > > participant > > > > and exchange ideas. > > > > > > > > Our experience from Apache Kylin, the core dev team was in same > office, > > > is > > > > to bring such stuff to mailing list as much as possible. f2f discuss > > is a > > > > great way but at least should raise some thread to let community know > > the > > > > next step, the plan and architect/tech changes, so that everybody > could > > > > join. Then you could see the community is more active today with many > > new > > > > contributors/committers and users. > > > > > > > > Please let me know if I could help more. > > > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > > > > > Best Regards! > > > > --------------------- > > > > > > > > Luke Han > > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 11:36 PM, Sergio Fernández < > [email protected]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > I've been thinking for a while about this issue... because my > current > > > > > feeling in that the community has not really landed in ASF. Yes, > you > > > are > > > > > creating issues, pull requests, commiting code, etc. But there is > no > > > much > > > > > discussion in the mailing list. For instance, checking the mail > > > archives > > > > of > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > http://markmail.org/search/?q=list%3Aorg.apache.s2graph.dev it's > > > > > clear something is happening behind the scenes. I can't find any > > other > > > > > reason how I can be the second most active person (excluding jira > and > > > > > github bots) in this mailing list. > > > > > > > > > > So that leads me to think that you still meet face-to-face on > regular > > > > > basis, you privately agree on the next steps and then you behave as > > you > > > > did > > > > > before as a company, but just on public coding infrastructure. And > > > that's > > > > > not supposed to happen in the Apache Way, where decisions are taken > > in > > > > the > > > > > community. Actually there is a common say in Apache: "If it didn't > > > happen > > > > > on a mailing list, it didn't happen". > > > > > > > > > > I may be wrong, and I hope to be wrong, but that's my current > > feeling. > > > > So, > > > > > my advice as mentor, and actually it's one of the points I stressed > > > when > > > > > the project entered incubation, is that you have to focus to grow > > your > > > > > community outside Kakao. For instance, I miss the discussion about > > the > > > > > first release. Such kind of thing, you know. > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Sergio Fernández > > > > > Partner Technology Manager > > > > > Redlink GmbH > > > > > m: +43 6602747925 > > > > > e: [email protected] > > > > > w: http://redlink.co > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Best regards, > Jaesang > -- Best regards, - Andy Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. - Piet Hein (via Tom White)
