I guess the point I'm trying to get at is that today if you're wanting to learn about graph databases and how TinkerPop and Gremlin-server especially can help your non-JVM needs you go through the following process :
- Somehow find the TinkerPop website (since this doesn't really return any hits for common queries in this area) - Try to figure out what TinkerPop is and how it can help. The landing page doesn't provide much information here appart from the one sentence description which is pretty broad. - Check the documentation for the above. The documentation dives straight into APIs which isn't relevant to these folks (or at least not in an obvious way, I'll get back to this later). The server section is so far down you need to search for it,and if you find it doesn't really cover the basics of installation. - Check the getting started tutorial. This is the first hint we get at the query language, how it works, etc. Although it might not be clear to some people that gremlin = groovy but that's another topic. - If your head is still in the game you check back with the documentation for info on traversals (which now mean something to you) but you're still going through the reference docs to figure anything out regarding the server. - Find the 3rd party project list and get info on the appropriate driver for them. - Finally get information on the graph implementation APIs you decide to use. This is where you grasp the full use and relevancy of point 3 It's a really tedious process. Basically what I'm trying to get at is that we have almost all the required blocks to make their life easier but they aren't presented in the right order/fashion for their use case. Ideally you would want to provide the following for the users: - Find a gremlin-server "website"/page (that would be found because it's the part of the stack that relates to their google queries) - Immediately have access to info regarding what this part of the stack is. Landing page with a quick howto 1) install the server (default, using TinkerGraph, 2) use gremlin by examples. (think of http://t4t5.github.io/sweetalert/ with less extensive examples and info). No need to explain how it works; just show it working. Finally 3) links to drivers for various languages. - From here the user is set up (minimally) and it's easier to find more extensive information regarding the server configuration from the current documentation. It's also easier to understand Gremlin better by accessing the getting started tutorial and traversal documentation. - Finally get information on the graph implementation APIs you decide to use. One requirement in all cases is an installation tutorial that goes a little in depth about installing various Graph implementations. I've been thinking of writing one to go with a PHP tutorial as well. Does this make any sense? On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 7:17 AM, pieter-gmail <pieter.mar...@gmail.com> wrote: > Ok nice, > Thanks > Pieter > > On 23/03/2016 13:10, Stephen Mallette wrote: > > Users would install a graph into gremlin server > > > > bin/gremlin-server.sh -i com.provider provider-db 1.0.0 > > > > then all the APIs tied to that library would be available. A provider > could > > make things even nicer by including a plugin that gremlin server could > > recognize that would auto-import classes for use and otherwise initialize > > the environment. > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 7:00 AM, pieter-gmail <pieter.mar...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > >> Hi, > >> > >> I am talking about optimizations/features that are not part of > >> TinkerPop's api. > >> > >> I recently tried BlazeGraph after all the talk about how fast it is. > >> Turns out it is slow, very slow. > >> https://github.com/blazegraph/tinkerpop3/issues/3 > >> Turns out they have a custom bulk load api, how would a client via > >> GremlinServer use that? > >> > >> Sqlg has similar optimizations/features outside TinkerPop. > >> Titan has a whole world of types and indexes and and and. > >> > >> I reckon most databases will have such "features" > >> > >> If a client only accesses a graph via GremlinServer how would they use > >> such optimizations? > >> Perhaps via some plugin framework? > >> > >> Thanks > >> Pieter > >> > >> On 23/03/2016 12:33, Stephen Mallette wrote: > >>> Dylan, thanks for your thoughts here. The Gremlin Server docs are > really > >>> just for reference at this point. As you've pointed out, we could do > more > >>> to improve people's understanding of that part of the stack. I've been > >>> hesitant in writing more documentation in this area as I've been > waiting > >>> for more of the stack to settle and better implementations patterns to > >>> emerge. I think that started with RemoteGraph which we will have in > 3.2.x > >>> as that's opened up a lot of new ideas both on and off the JVM as we > >>> consider ways to stop doing the classic SQL-ish way of passing long > >> strings > >>> to a database server. I don't know that we need a Gremlin Server > specific > >>> site - but maybe i'm not sure of what you have in mind. I've been > >> thinking > >>> that the time is coming where we will want to have a solid Gremlin > Server > >>> tutorial though (perhaps several with different connectivity patterns > for > >>> different languages). ?? > >>> > >>> Pieter, you don't lose any backend optimizations with Gremlin Server. > The > >>> same Traversal Strategies that would fire in embedded mode would fire > in > >>> Gremlin Server. > >>> > >>> On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 3:14 PM, pieter-gmail <pieter.mar...@gmail.com > > > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hi, > >>>> > >>>> What I would add to the gist is the latency penalty. As a java guy and > >>>> db guy its the bane off my live, OO devolves into query strings > because > >>>> of latency and eventually one feels like one would be better of with > >>>> 60's tech writing stored procedures and PLSQL. > >>>> > >>>> Anther one is the fact that dbs compete in the space where they do not > >>>> follow the specification. Does Gremlin Server make one loose any > >>>> particular backends optimizations? > >>>> > >>>> I have never used Gremlin Server so perhaps my concerns are moot, but > if > >>>> they are on a website like you propose I'd read it. > >>>> > >>>> Cheers > >>>> Pieter > >>>> > >>>> On 22/03/2016 20:31, Dylan Millikin wrote: > >>>>> Hey guys, > >>>>> > >>>>> Coming from a non-java background I've been thinking about what steps > >>>> could > >>>>> be taken to improve the project's reach in these communities. As time > >> has > >>>>> gone by I've added some thoughts to the following gist (they are just > >>>>> thoughts at this point, some may be unrelated or simply not > possible) : > >>>>> https://gist.github.com/PommeVerte/2fc463be9c418b465456 > >>>>> > >>>>> The one I want to talk about in this email is about the benefits of > >>>> having > >>>>> a Gremlin server dedicated space on the website (ideally with it's > own > >>>> URL > >>>>> for clarity and SEO purposes, though I'm unsure what Apache > guidelines > >>>> are > >>>>> here). > >>>>> > >>>>> Right now if I'm new to graph *databases* (emphasis) and am looking > to > >>>> get > >>>>> started, the TinkerPop website is not inviting. There's a lot of > >>>>> information about the stack (purposfuly so) and I'm instantly lost > in a > >>>>> bunch of information I can't relate to. So I just go to Neo4J and > learn > >>>>> cypher ;p > >>>>> > >>>>> I understand that Gremlin server is a commodity for implementors and > >> not > >>>> an > >>>>> actual database. But I think there's value in promoting it as one. > >> Typing > >>>>> "graph database" in google should bring Gremlin Server up, if only to > >>>> make > >>>>> people aware that they have the option of using it with the DB of > their > >>>>> choice. > >>>>> > >>>>> I wanted to reach out and hear what your thoughts on the subject > were. > >>>> Also > >>>>> perhaps this is within the scope of "tinkerland" and is already being > >>>> taken > >>>>> care of. I wouldn't know at this stage. > >>>>> > >> > >
