I can easily whip up some basic mockup of what the landing page could look like if that made things clearer.
On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 2:24 PM, Dylan Millikin <dylan.milli...@gmail.com> wrote: > I guess the point I'm trying to get at is that today if you're wanting to > learn about graph databases and how TinkerPop and Gremlin-server especially > can help your non-JVM needs you go through the following process : > > > - Somehow find the TinkerPop website (since this doesn't really return > any hits for common queries in this area) > - Try to figure out what TinkerPop is and how it can help. The landing > page doesn't provide much information here appart from the one sentence > description which is pretty broad. > - Check the documentation for the above. The documentation dives > straight into APIs which isn't relevant to these folks (or at least not in > an obvious way, I'll get back to this later). The server section is so far > down you need to search for it,and if you find it doesn't really cover the > basics of installation. > - Check the getting started tutorial. This is the first hint we get at > the query language, how it works, etc. Although it might not be clear to > some people that gremlin = groovy but that's another topic. > - If your head is still in the game you check back with the > documentation for info on traversals (which now mean something to you) but > you're still going through the reference docs to figure anything out > regarding the server. > - Find the 3rd party project list and get info on the appropriate > driver for them. > - Finally get information on the graph implementation APIs you decide > to use. This is where you grasp the full use and relevancy of point 3 > > > It's a really tedious process. > Basically what I'm trying to get at is that we have almost all the > required blocks to make their life easier but they aren't presented in the > right order/fashion for their use case. Ideally you would want to provide > the following for the users: > > - Find a gremlin-server "website"/page (that would be found because > it's the part of the stack that relates to their google queries) > - Immediately have access to info regarding what this part of the > stack is. Landing page with a quick howto 1) install the server (default, > using TinkerGraph, 2) use gremlin by examples. (think of > http://t4t5.github.io/sweetalert/ with less extensive examples and > info). No need to explain how it works; just show it working. Finally 3) > links to drivers for various languages. > - From here the user is set up (minimally) and it's easier to find > more extensive information regarding the server configuration from the > current documentation. It's also easier to understand Gremlin better by > accessing the getting started tutorial and traversal documentation. > - Finally get information on the graph implementation APIs you decide > to use. > > One requirement in all cases is an installation tutorial that goes a > little in depth about installing various Graph implementations. I've been > thinking of writing one to go with a PHP tutorial as well. > > Does this make any sense? > > On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 7:17 AM, pieter-gmail <pieter.mar...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Ok nice, >> Thanks >> Pieter >> >> On 23/03/2016 13:10, Stephen Mallette wrote: >> > Users would install a graph into gremlin server >> > >> > bin/gremlin-server.sh -i com.provider provider-db 1.0.0 >> > >> > then all the APIs tied to that library would be available. A provider >> could >> > make things even nicer by including a plugin that gremlin server could >> > recognize that would auto-import classes for use and otherwise >> initialize >> > the environment. >> > >> > >> > >> > On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 7:00 AM, pieter-gmail <pieter.mar...@gmail.com> >> > wrote: >> > >> >> Hi, >> >> >> >> I am talking about optimizations/features that are not part of >> >> TinkerPop's api. >> >> >> >> I recently tried BlazeGraph after all the talk about how fast it is. >> >> Turns out it is slow, very slow. >> >> https://github.com/blazegraph/tinkerpop3/issues/3 >> >> Turns out they have a custom bulk load api, how would a client via >> >> GremlinServer use that? >> >> >> >> Sqlg has similar optimizations/features outside TinkerPop. >> >> Titan has a whole world of types and indexes and and and. >> >> >> >> I reckon most databases will have such "features" >> >> >> >> If a client only accesses a graph via GremlinServer how would they use >> >> such optimizations? >> >> Perhaps via some plugin framework? >> >> >> >> Thanks >> >> Pieter >> >> >> >> On 23/03/2016 12:33, Stephen Mallette wrote: >> >>> Dylan, thanks for your thoughts here. The Gremlin Server docs are >> really >> >>> just for reference at this point. As you've pointed out, we could do >> more >> >>> to improve people's understanding of that part of the stack. I've been >> >>> hesitant in writing more documentation in this area as I've been >> waiting >> >>> for more of the stack to settle and better implementations patterns to >> >>> emerge. I think that started with RemoteGraph which we will have in >> 3.2.x >> >>> as that's opened up a lot of new ideas both on and off the JVM as we >> >>> consider ways to stop doing the classic SQL-ish way of passing long >> >> strings >> >>> to a database server. I don't know that we need a Gremlin Server >> specific >> >>> site - but maybe i'm not sure of what you have in mind. I've been >> >> thinking >> >>> that the time is coming where we will want to have a solid Gremlin >> Server >> >>> tutorial though (perhaps several with different connectivity patterns >> for >> >>> different languages). ?? >> >>> >> >>> Pieter, you don't lose any backend optimizations with Gremlin Server. >> The >> >>> same Traversal Strategies that would fire in embedded mode would fire >> in >> >>> Gremlin Server. >> >>> >> >>> On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 3:14 PM, pieter-gmail < >> pieter.mar...@gmail.com> >> >>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> Hi, >> >>>> >> >>>> What I would add to the gist is the latency penalty. As a java guy >> and >> >>>> db guy its the bane off my live, OO devolves into query strings >> because >> >>>> of latency and eventually one feels like one would be better of with >> >>>> 60's tech writing stored procedures and PLSQL. >> >>>> >> >>>> Anther one is the fact that dbs compete in the space where they do >> not >> >>>> follow the specification. Does Gremlin Server make one loose any >> >>>> particular backends optimizations? >> >>>> >> >>>> I have never used Gremlin Server so perhaps my concerns are moot, >> but if >> >>>> they are on a website like you propose I'd read it. >> >>>> >> >>>> Cheers >> >>>> Pieter >> >>>> >> >>>> On 22/03/2016 20:31, Dylan Millikin wrote: >> >>>>> Hey guys, >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Coming from a non-java background I've been thinking about what >> steps >> >>>> could >> >>>>> be taken to improve the project's reach in these communities. As >> time >> >> has >> >>>>> gone by I've added some thoughts to the following gist (they are >> just >> >>>>> thoughts at this point, some may be unrelated or simply not >> possible) : >> >>>>> https://gist.github.com/PommeVerte/2fc463be9c418b465456 >> >>>>> >> >>>>> The one I want to talk about in this email is about the benefits of >> >>>> having >> >>>>> a Gremlin server dedicated space on the website (ideally with it's >> own >> >>>> URL >> >>>>> for clarity and SEO purposes, though I'm unsure what Apache >> guidelines >> >>>> are >> >>>>> here). >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Right now if I'm new to graph *databases* (emphasis) and am looking >> to >> >>>> get >> >>>>> started, the TinkerPop website is not inviting. There's a lot of >> >>>>> information about the stack (purposfuly so) and I'm instantly lost >> in a >> >>>>> bunch of information I can't relate to. So I just go to Neo4J and >> learn >> >>>>> cypher ;p >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I understand that Gremlin server is a commodity for implementors and >> >> not >> >>>> an >> >>>>> actual database. But I think there's value in promoting it as one. >> >> Typing >> >>>>> "graph database" in google should bring Gremlin Server up, if only >> to >> >>>> make >> >>>>> people aware that they have the option of using it with the DB of >> their >> >>>>> choice. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I wanted to reach out and hear what your thoughts on the subject >> were. >> >>>> Also >> >>>>> perhaps this is within the scope of "tinkerland" and is already >> being >> >>>> taken >> >>>>> care of. I wouldn't know at this stage. >> >>>>> >> >> >> >> >
