I think a mockup would help. Thanks. On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 2:27 PM, Dylan Millikin <dylan.milli...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I can easily whip up some basic mockup of what the landing page could look > like if that made things clearer. > > On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 2:24 PM, Dylan Millikin <dylan.milli...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > I guess the point I'm trying to get at is that today if you're wanting to > > learn about graph databases and how TinkerPop and Gremlin-server > especially > > can help your non-JVM needs you go through the following process : > > > > > > - Somehow find the TinkerPop website (since this doesn't really return > > any hits for common queries in this area) > > - Try to figure out what TinkerPop is and how it can help. The landing > > page doesn't provide much information here appart from the one > sentence > > description which is pretty broad. > > - Check the documentation for the above. The documentation dives > > straight into APIs which isn't relevant to these folks (or at least > not in > > an obvious way, I'll get back to this later). The server section is > so far > > down you need to search for it,and if you find it doesn't really > cover the > > basics of installation. > > - Check the getting started tutorial. This is the first hint we get at > > the query language, how it works, etc. Although it might not be clear > to > > some people that gremlin = groovy but that's another topic. > > - If your head is still in the game you check back with the > > documentation for info on traversals (which now mean something to > you) but > > you're still going through the reference docs to figure anything out > > regarding the server. > > - Find the 3rd party project list and get info on the appropriate > > driver for them. > > - Finally get information on the graph implementation APIs you decide > > to use. This is where you grasp the full use and relevancy of point 3 > > > > > > It's a really tedious process. > > Basically what I'm trying to get at is that we have almost all the > > required blocks to make their life easier but they aren't presented in > the > > right order/fashion for their use case. Ideally you would want to provide > > the following for the users: > > > > - Find a gremlin-server "website"/page (that would be found because > > it's the part of the stack that relates to their google queries) > > - Immediately have access to info regarding what this part of the > > stack is. Landing page with a quick howto 1) install the server > (default, > > using TinkerGraph, 2) use gremlin by examples. (think of > > http://t4t5.github.io/sweetalert/ with less extensive examples and > > info). No need to explain how it works; just show it working. Finally > 3) > > links to drivers for various languages. > > - From here the user is set up (minimally) and it's easier to find > > more extensive information regarding the server configuration from the > > current documentation. It's also easier to understand Gremlin better > by > > accessing the getting started tutorial and traversal documentation. > > - Finally get information on the graph implementation APIs you decide > > to use. > > > > One requirement in all cases is an installation tutorial that goes a > > little in depth about installing various Graph implementations. I've been > > thinking of writing one to go with a PHP tutorial as well. > > > > Does this make any sense? > > > > On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 7:17 AM, pieter-gmail <pieter.mar...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > >> Ok nice, > >> Thanks > >> Pieter > >> > >> On 23/03/2016 13:10, Stephen Mallette wrote: > >> > Users would install a graph into gremlin server > >> > > >> > bin/gremlin-server.sh -i com.provider provider-db 1.0.0 > >> > > >> > then all the APIs tied to that library would be available. A provider > >> could > >> > make things even nicer by including a plugin that gremlin server could > >> > recognize that would auto-import classes for use and otherwise > >> initialize > >> > the environment. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 7:00 AM, pieter-gmail < > pieter.mar...@gmail.com> > >> > wrote: > >> > > >> >> Hi, > >> >> > >> >> I am talking about optimizations/features that are not part of > >> >> TinkerPop's api. > >> >> > >> >> I recently tried BlazeGraph after all the talk about how fast it is. > >> >> Turns out it is slow, very slow. > >> >> https://github.com/blazegraph/tinkerpop3/issues/3 > >> >> Turns out they have a custom bulk load api, how would a client via > >> >> GremlinServer use that? > >> >> > >> >> Sqlg has similar optimizations/features outside TinkerPop. > >> >> Titan has a whole world of types and indexes and and and. > >> >> > >> >> I reckon most databases will have such "features" > >> >> > >> >> If a client only accesses a graph via GremlinServer how would they > use > >> >> such optimizations? > >> >> Perhaps via some plugin framework? > >> >> > >> >> Thanks > >> >> Pieter > >> >> > >> >> On 23/03/2016 12:33, Stephen Mallette wrote: > >> >>> Dylan, thanks for your thoughts here. The Gremlin Server docs are > >> really > >> >>> just for reference at this point. As you've pointed out, we could do > >> more > >> >>> to improve people's understanding of that part of the stack. I've > been > >> >>> hesitant in writing more documentation in this area as I've been > >> waiting > >> >>> for more of the stack to settle and better implementations patterns > to > >> >>> emerge. I think that started with RemoteGraph which we will have in > >> 3.2.x > >> >>> as that's opened up a lot of new ideas both on and off the JVM as we > >> >>> consider ways to stop doing the classic SQL-ish way of passing long > >> >> strings > >> >>> to a database server. I don't know that we need a Gremlin Server > >> specific > >> >>> site - but maybe i'm not sure of what you have in mind. I've been > >> >> thinking > >> >>> that the time is coming where we will want to have a solid Gremlin > >> Server > >> >>> tutorial though (perhaps several with different connectivity > patterns > >> for > >> >>> different languages). ?? > >> >>> > >> >>> Pieter, you don't lose any backend optimizations with Gremlin > Server. > >> The > >> >>> same Traversal Strategies that would fire in embedded mode would > fire > >> in > >> >>> Gremlin Server. > >> >>> > >> >>> On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 3:14 PM, pieter-gmail < > >> pieter.mar...@gmail.com> > >> >>> wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>>> Hi, > >> >>>> > >> >>>> What I would add to the gist is the latency penalty. As a java guy > >> and > >> >>>> db guy its the bane off my live, OO devolves into query strings > >> because > >> >>>> of latency and eventually one feels like one would be better of > with > >> >>>> 60's tech writing stored procedures and PLSQL. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Anther one is the fact that dbs compete in the space where they do > >> not > >> >>>> follow the specification. Does Gremlin Server make one loose any > >> >>>> particular backends optimizations? > >> >>>> > >> >>>> I have never used Gremlin Server so perhaps my concerns are moot, > >> but if > >> >>>> they are on a website like you propose I'd read it. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Cheers > >> >>>> Pieter > >> >>>> > >> >>>> On 22/03/2016 20:31, Dylan Millikin wrote: > >> >>>>> Hey guys, > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> Coming from a non-java background I've been thinking about what > >> steps > >> >>>> could > >> >>>>> be taken to improve the project's reach in these communities. As > >> time > >> >> has > >> >>>>> gone by I've added some thoughts to the following gist (they are > >> just > >> >>>>> thoughts at this point, some may be unrelated or simply not > >> possible) : > >> >>>>> https://gist.github.com/PommeVerte/2fc463be9c418b465456 > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> The one I want to talk about in this email is about the benefits > of > >> >>>> having > >> >>>>> a Gremlin server dedicated space on the website (ideally with it's > >> own > >> >>>> URL > >> >>>>> for clarity and SEO purposes, though I'm unsure what Apache > >> guidelines > >> >>>> are > >> >>>>> here). > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> Right now if I'm new to graph *databases* (emphasis) and am > looking > >> to > >> >>>> get > >> >>>>> started, the TinkerPop website is not inviting. There's a lot of > >> >>>>> information about the stack (purposfuly so) and I'm instantly lost > >> in a > >> >>>>> bunch of information I can't relate to. So I just go to Neo4J and > >> learn > >> >>>>> cypher ;p > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> I understand that Gremlin server is a commodity for implementors > and > >> >> not > >> >>>> an > >> >>>>> actual database. But I think there's value in promoting it as one. > >> >> Typing > >> >>>>> "graph database" in google should bring Gremlin Server up, if only > >> to > >> >>>> make > >> >>>>> people aware that they have the option of using it with the DB of > >> their > >> >>>>> choice. > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> I wanted to reach out and hear what your thoughts on the subject > >> were. > >> >>>> Also > >> >>>>> perhaps this is within the scope of "tinkerland" and is already > >> being > >> >>>> taken > >> >>>>> care of. I wouldn't know at this stage. > >> >>>>> > >> >> > >> > >> > > >
