On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 10:08 PM Jóhann B. Guðmundsson
<johan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2.7.2020 01:42, Neal Gompa wrote:
> > On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 9:23 PM Jóhann B. Guðmundsson <johan...@gmail.com> 
> > wrote:
> >> On 2.7.2020 01:06, Neal Gompa wrote:
> >>> On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 9:03 PM Jóhann B. Guðmundsson <johan...@gmail.com> 
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> On 1.7.2020 23:28, Neal Gompa wrote:
> >>>>> On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 7:19 PM Björn Persson <Bjorn@rombobjörn.se> 
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote:
> >>>>>>> More user friendly than Grub ( has lilo like interface easier to 
> >>>>>>> change
> >>>>>>> kernel entry, which goes nicely with the default editor change )
> >>>>>> This made me go "What?!". I used Lilo back in the day. Its user
> >>>>>> interface was nothing but a prompt. You had to know what to type or
> >>>>>> you'd be stuck.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Information for others like me who haven't seen Lilo since Grub came
> >>>>>> along: Apparently development of Lilo continued until just five years
> >>>>>> ago, and it grew a menu at some point. I guess that menu is the image
> >>>>>> of user-friendliness that Johann was trying to invoke.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> If I ever wanted to switch to another boot manager, I'd seriously like
> >>>>> us to consider rEFInd: https://www.rodsbooks.com/refind/
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It's a very nice boot manager that looks good and doesn't suck. And
> >>>>> purportedly is somewhat (if not fully) compatible with bls.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> sd-boot is too barebones and unfriendly to use, which makes sense
> >>>>> since it was designed for non-interactive machines and not humans to
> >>>>> use.
> >>>> If there is this general feel that sd-boots configuration syntax is much
> >>>> harder to read and the ability of not having to run additional command
> >>>> once the file has been edited or the ability to be able to easily
> >>>> maintain and manage multiple kernels or multiple operating systems due
> >>>> those being a drop-in configuration text files, is considered being too
> >>>> bare bone and *less* user-friendly than grub, then obviously me creating
> >>>> a change proposal based on what Javier suggested along with other
> >>>> cleanups to provide as best user experience as can be had with sd-boot
> >>>> would be doing the distribution a great disservice would it not?
> >>>>
> >>> Oh, I don't care about the configuration syntax. That part would be
> >>> the same across grub, refind, and sd-boot anyway.
> >>>
> >>> The user-interactive portion of sd-boot is *awful*. I know our GRUB
> >>> looks ugly by default these days too, but it doesn't have to be, and
> >>> most distros actually do make it look semi-decent.
> >>>
> >>> But alas, nobody cares about making that part look nice, because they
> >>> hope people don't have to go there at all. But even Windows makes
> >>> their boot manager not look ugly and relatively easy to navigate. And
> >>> obviously Apple has done this forever with macOS.
> >>>
> >>> I honestly don't get why everyone is okay with butt-ugly and 
> >>> user-unfriendly UX.
> >> Because the end user should never find himself in the boot manager to
> >> begin with that's why no boot manager invest any time in being "pretty".
> >>
> >> The end user should find himself ending up in some form of shiny nice
> >> user friendly rescue environment that helps him troubleshoot his problem
> >> would you agree?
> >>
> > I would, except, we can't have that either, because nobody cares to
> > make that either.
> Well if anything I would have expected atleast the Gnome community to
> care deeply about that and build a a rescue environment consistent with
> the overall Gnome experience.

This is the first time I'm hearing of GNOME being interested in
preboot environments.

> If we implement sd-boot in conjunction with the automatic boot
> assessment we should be able to boot into such environment if the end
> users boot fails but if people oppose sd-boot and see that as unusable
> root of all evil or there is no interest within the Workstation WG and
> or Gnome community ( Team Anaconda might be the right place for such
> work? )  working on to provide such an rescue environment then obviously
> nothing will change.

This could still work. But you really shouldn't accept butt-ugliness
from any user-facing technology, even sd-boot.

真実はいつも一つ!/ Always, there's only one truth!
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