On Sun, 12 Jan 2003, Mark Vojkovich wrote: > Is a bug tracking system necessarily imposing? Perhaps it's not >well understood what's really involved with one. Keeping track >of what is broken and when it gets fixed seems like a good idea >to me. What does this impose on developers?
Nothing is imposed on developers at all. If we were to hypothesize that tomorrow, all of a sudden a bugzilla database sprung up for XFree86, I think it would take a while - not long, for it to get set up, organized, get the quirks out, and start getting useful data input. There are already tonnes of volunteers knocking on the door to triage, and help maintain such a thing. I can't speak for anyone but myself, but all I'd request, would be for people to look at such an effort with an open mind, and to at least voluntarily "try" it on their own free will, and provide whomever would be running it with feedback about what they like/dislike, and such. In other words, all that is really being requested, is open mindedness, and open co-operation to try new things that are likely to help the project. > I think frivilous bugs and non-bugs being reported could be >a potential time waster. Yes, they can be a bit of a time waster. That's why developers would not at all be expected to do anything they do not want to do voluntarily. The whole idea is _completely_ volunteer based. Volunteer as in, people contribute to the bug database only if they want to, and how much they want to, and they only do _what_ they want to also. I for one would be the first person to tell someone to take a long jump off a short dock if they demanded anything of me. I'm sure many people reading this email will vouch that I do that right now in fact. In fact, I volunteer to be the person who tells other people to take a long jump off a short dock, if they make any demands on other developers also. ;o) >Who gets to file bugs? It might be a good idea to discuss that with the various people whom would actually volunteer to help out at the beginning, and also receive input from those who aren't willing to volunteer, but are willing to look at it with an open mind. Personally, I think having the database be open to the public is a good idea, and it has proven to be a good idea with many other large projects. As long as there are people to triage, and trim out the riff raff and useless crap (like 90% of the bug reports traditionally received on the existing bug report mechanism), and people volunteering to help get bug reporters to provide proper information and details until there is something useable for a developer to look at. Many people have volunteered already to participate in such an effort, and many of those volunteers already do triage on other existing bugzilla databases out there. >Who determines whether they are legitimate or not? I suppose anyone can do that. If a developer says "this is not a valid bug report", that is pretty close to the final word in lieu of more details from the reporter or someone else. Some bug reports are rediculously useless - no question. When I get those, if I can't get information out of someone that is useful, their bug report hits the can. >Does a bug tracking system necessarily complicate the work that >some developers do? I can speak from both sides of the fence on that one. I used to HATE bugzilla (and I can hunt down my email postings on this subject for proof if need be <grin>) until a short while after I begun maintaining X for Red Hat. I get bug reports via email still, and I also get bug reports from the XFree86 bug report list. I can say, without a question, the quality of the bug reports received on the [EMAIL PROTECTED] bug submission list, is close to zero on 60-90% of all submissions. Bugzilla bug reports concerning XFree86 on the other hand, generally have a much higher information to noise ratio, and since there is a simple method of 2 way communication involved, I can easily ask the person for more information. Also, _anyone_ else can also ask the person for more information, and many people do, including other employees, other users, and a few people who just seem addicted to helping with bugzilla. There are a heck of a lot of volunteers out there though that take care of some of the tedious boring stuff like finding duplicates and closing them as such, closing already fixed issues, requesting more information, and the variety of other things that bug tracking needs doing. I delete bug reports sent via email directly to me on first sight, and I also delete emails unread where someone has replied to the email message bugzilla sends out that specifically says "do not reply to this email". I do so because if I respond, then I have to email back and forth with the person, and remember their situation, store the emails that are related to their problem, and stand on my head simply because they can't read "do not reply via email, use bugzilla". When they use bugzilla, things are SO much easier. And since bugzilla is very queryable, I can look for similar issues and try to find out if 2 people are having the same problem or not - or, someone else can do this stuff for me also, and many volunteers do. Many bug reporters do it just because they notice 2 bug reports are in fact the same bug. >That is, is it elective, or does it force existing developers to >change the way they work whether they like it or not? If someone demanded that I am forced to use something like this wether or not I wanted to, I'd tell them where to go. And I fully expect anyone else to do the same. I can say however, from personal experience of using bugzilla now as a developer for several years, that any future projects that I start up personally, will have bug tracking with bugzilla for sure, and that any other projects I'm involved with, I'll suggest to them to use bugzilla if they're not allready. While it is not 100% perfect, nothing is. It has some upsides, and some downsides, but overall, it is a huge blessing, and a tool that is hard to live without once you're used to it for a short period of time. > Where I work, bug tracking is necessarily tied to source control >in rather strict ways. Ways that I don't necessarily like, and >would not want to see XFree86 emulate. But I can envision non- >intrusive bug tracking. I definitely wouldn't want to see anything like that. I'd strongly oppose such even. When it comes to one's employer, one must use what their employer tells them to use. When one is a volunteer - for anything, nobody can force them to use anything, nor do they have any right to do so. People who try to force a volunteer to do something, will almost suredly fail horribly. Bugzilla is a great tool however, and one worth having an open mind towards, even if it is just to poke at it with a stick from a mile away and flare one's nostrils. ;o) -- Mike A. 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