Dnia 2009-06-30, wto o godzinie 10:57 -0700, Kevin Fox pisze:
> On Tue, 2009-06-30 at 10:15 -0700, Michał Sawicz wrote:
> > Dnia 2009-06-30, wto o godzinie 16:48 +0200, David McLeod pisze:
> <SNIP>
> > 
> > Actually if LiveTV is more important than recorded shows is debatable.
> > According to #mythtv-users most of the users set in their MythTV setup
> > rarely use LiveTV. They have so much recordings set up they don't have
> > the time to watch live. Of course the ability to watch a show
> > currently
> > being recorded is needed, too. The usual PVR does never show a
> > completely 'Live' TV. It's always a recording, just a recording of
> > what
> > is currently broadcasted. This, in turn, allows for all the use cases
> > you've described.
> 
> This is how I use it.

Yeah me too, mostly. Only recently my hw got dodgy on me and does not
record most of my schedules correctly.

> > What we really need, IMO, is a new way to do EPG. The stale old table
> > of
> > channels vs. time is soooo 90s. We need to leverage the abilities
> > Moovida provides us with in terms of UX and design. I'm not saying I
> > know what to do, I don't even have a set idea of what could we do, I
> > just want us to brainstorm here.
> 
> I usually use Myth's search feature rather then the channel vs time for
> this.

Yeah search is important, but some kind of EPG could be useful, too.

> > Another thing is channel hierarchy. I don't think a flat list digs it
> > now that we have hundreds if not thousands of channels available.
> 
> Again, this is one of the reasons to not bother with live tv. What I
> want to do is watch the shows I want to watch, not "tune to channel 107
> at 5:30pm". You let the PVR do all of that.
> 
> I think the EPG should be designed around letting you pick what you want
> to watch. Sort by Genre of show, similar shows to what you like, etc and
> then let you schedule recordings easily.

Still, most users that start with PVRs don't get it from start so we
need to allow that, too.

> > I
> > think the ability to arbitrarily set up a tree of channels (where the
> > same channel can show up in different branches) would allow for easy
> > and
> > user-defined grouping by service provider, channel type (movies /
> > sports / news), favorites etc.
> 
> I think thats probably too confining. I'd take your 90's comment and
> apply it to channels entirely. The SciFi channel for example plays
> science fiction and and sometimes fantasy. Say I was a Scifi nut but
> didn't like fantasy. If the tree was more like:
> 
> Sports/All
> Sports/Football
> Sports/Basketball
> Science Fiction
> Fantasy
> Drama/All
> Drama/Some kind of hospital show series
> 
> Etc.
> 
> I could just select based on what I liked.

That's why I wanted it to be completely user-defined. You want it this
way? Good, have it your way.

> > I know that 'Watch TV' is the usual way to start watching - just jump
> > to
> > the last watched channel. I find myself doing that even if I want to
> > watch something else, I then have to wait for the channel to lock and
> > start playing before I can switch to a different channel I actually
> > want
> > to watch.
> 
> I hardly ever do that.

I still do, sometimes.

> > That would, probably, be easier as the backend side of things is
> > complete. On the other hand Myth is recently getting a rehaul and we
> > can't be sure what will the future bring.
> 
> One of my biggest complaints with them though has been how far apart
> their stable / devel branches get. Its years before then release. 
> 
> But, this means if you always target the stable release for your client,
> your pretty safe. It is definitely not a moving target. :)

I may be biased, but that's just because I'm left with using Myth even
when I don't like it. Most of the ideas they have are great, but IMO
Myth is so big a lump it needs a rewrite. And that's what Moovida's here
for ;P

> > The thing to notice here is
> > that there's completely no alternative UIs for MythTV anywhere. I
> > think
> > there's a reason.
> 
> I think its because their UI is deceptively simple looking. Once you dig
> into trying to implement it elsewhere you find a lot of little, great
> features, that are hard to implement in whatever client your trying to
> bind to it.

Deception is a good word :D

> For example, commercial skip. I have it set on by default. It works 9
> times out of 10. The 10th time, I can just hit back a couple of times or
> forward a couple of times and get past the issue. Or, I can hit 'E',
> bring up the commercial skip list editor and fix the issue, so next time
> I watch that recording its fixed. If I tell it to burn the show to a
> DVD, I can have it use that same cut list that I ensured was correct
> right in the client, and burn to the disk cropping out the commercials. 

Yes, editing is great, simple and effective.

> If I'm watching a live stream, and the scheduler wants to use the tuner,
> it prompts me if I want to let the scheduler have it. If I don't respond
> in time, it just takes it.

Yeah I sometimes have problems with that, it sometimes does not ask and 
hangs the frontend. And where's the 'Record and watch as it records' option 
gone?

> Or a big one, all the metadata related to a show. They way they order
> things, if you have 30 different episodes of the simpsons recorded, You
> can easily look through them, get a short/long description and find one
> you want to watch and ignore the ones you don't. I've seen very few
> media clients that do that well.

Grouping by series / season name is something we already have and as
discussed earlier, we could easily integrate it with current TV Show
menus.

> > I'm also not sure about Gstreamer's ability to play / rewind
> > files saved by MythTV, my quick tests show that playing the file
> > directly or through a mythv:// URI does give me playback, but
> > rewinding
> > is only possible for files that have stopped recording.
> 
> We'd need to fix up gstreamers codec then. Which would be harder,
> rewriting mythbackend from scratch, or fixing a slightly broken
> codec? :)
> 
> Also, having this codec fixed helps for other reasons. No matter what, I
> still have lots of NUV encoded stuff laying around.

Yeah but it's a niche, I don't believe there's a proper container ready
for this kind of use.

> > > > The other method is to use Gnome DVBD, this means providing our
> > own
> > > > code for TV streaming, interfacing with GDVBD's EPG or using an
> > > > outside source (preferable). Also this means writing our own code
> > > > for things like recording, schedules, expiration, ad skipping, and
> > > > possibly alot more.
> 
> I think this is pretty hard to do well. It took Myth a long time to get
> all of that usable.

We can learn from them, simplify and improve even further. One of the
most important features of Moovida is simplicity.

> > >From discussions we already had on IRC the easiest way to integrate
> > with
> > GDVBD would be to use UPnP. We would need to extend the protocol but
> > that, according to Frank Scholz (d...@#elisa,#coherence), the core
> > developer behind Coherence, should not be too difficult.
> 
> This sounds like a good idea to me. It would be nice for my PS3 as
> well. :)

Yeah that's an additional gain.
 
> > One BIG drawback of GDVBD is that AFAIK it's currently DVB-only,

-- 
Michał Sawicz <[email protected]>

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