On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 10:56:17 -0700, Kevin Fox <[email protected]> wrote: > On Wed, 2009-07-01 at 04:08 -0700, David McLeod wrote: >> >> >> Hi All, >> >> >> Ok this is a long one but... hopefully a good one :) >> >> >> As we are brainstorming at the moment keep in mind a full >> specification needs to be written. I have to note that there is a >> feeling of going slightly off track here. So let me steer it on course >> by pushing this discussion back to where we should be focusing... the >> user and what he/she needs to do, and what they might want. (there is >> a balance of course, dev talk versus UI talk) >> >> >> So, focus first on that more before arguing too much about GStreamer >> vs this or that...lets figure out what it should do for the user, keep >> it simple, then argue about 'the tech' to make it possible afterwards. >> >> >> So, the user has a problem, we analysis it, brainstorm (as we have)... >> write a specification from a UX viewpoint... offer the solution via >> the UI mockups and then, the developers help make it work :). Fluendo >> will of course help wherever possible...probably more on the UI side >> in this instance and probably in setting up the foundations of the UI >> for you to tie your code to. >> >> >> However, someone needs to be nominated to organise all 'tech talk' >> going on at the moment and keep a handle on it. I am keeping and eye >> on how this is being done as I want to see if there is a good solid >> process to help developers get into doing things on our project rather >> than bashing their thoughts into a mailing list :). >> >> >> I do know and feel (it has even been proven here at Fluendo!) that >> having developers jump in before any design happens or at least a >> detailed spec from a UX perspective has been written >> spells...DISASTER. > > Yes. > >> 'Tech talk' is great though up front, as it explores possibilities for >> design but, the UX stuff should be written at some point to bring it >> all together into a cohesive plan to begin mockups and then >> development. >> >> >> Finally, as I saw it questioned, we are an OpenSource project and yes, >> Fluendo may well one day focus efforts on a specific tuner card, or >> work with a third party in that regard. However, we wouldn't do that >> to the detriment of our community or the Opensource ethos. You will >> always have the ability to write, modify or provide a solution for >> just about anything you want to do on the project. I trust everything >> we do and have done is extendable and plugable so that it doesn't >> limit new ideas or initiatives. > > That wasn't really my concern. It was more about how the ui should be > organized to deal with multiple PVR's if that was desired. > >>
Well yes and no. Ok, first, I am taking my Fluendo hat off when I say the word 'our'. When I say 'our; in what follows I am talkign about a potential plugin with you guys here on the mailing list create. If our plugin is good enough, and should the time come when it is needed for something that is needed internally at Fluendo then great. If the plugin doesn't do what Fluendo requires, for whatever reason, they will build their own and pull code where possible and rework it. This leaves our work here with two choices, carry on as seperate community developed plugin...or make our plugin tie directly into the new Fluendo creation. I trust that Fluendo wouldn't create something similar to what the community has done without talking to us a little though or trying to not waste our work, which would be like forking a plugin project I guess. Ok...Fluendo hat back on :p >> >> Ok, on to my UX brainstorming (its a little long, sorry :p...but >> detailed I hope)... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> PLUGIN HIERARCHY + LOOSE FEATURE OVERVIEW >> >> >> I would define the needs of the v1 release to do the absolute core >> necessity of PVR software. This release is about keeping it simple and >> I feel that can be made achievable through a UI hierarchy like this... > > So, just to be clear... > > What kind of UI are we talking about. Are we talking about the one and > only one instance of PVR UI for Moovida, > > or are we talking about a UI that all PVR plugins are expected to > implement? A base class UI of sorts. See my last comment above :) > >> >> >> 1. LiveTV >> The 'Player' >> 2. Programme Guide (EPG) >> 'List' Current or Upcoming Shows (by time/date) >> Show Summary/Synopsis >> 3. Recordings >> List of (by date) >> 4. Schedule >> List of (by date) >> 5. Settings >> >> >> 1. At a basic level, LiveTV should allow for instant recording and >> pausing of a TV show with the ability to skip through other channels >> included. > > Will it be able to pop up the EPG? Yes, it should have a link to 'Info/Synopsis' details and a link to the 'EPG'. > >> LiveTV is a must for two reasons. Firstly it is instant media >> gratification which is actually a consistent experience across Moovida >> so lets keep with it. The value of the plugin and what it does can be >> seen immediately, even by low level users. Secondly, it is an absolute >> must for the sport fanatic who needs to watch it 'now & live'. This >> 'sub-section' will not do anything fancy at this stage like Picture in >> Picture for example. > > Sounds good to me. > >> Lets keep it simple, plus our player needs a complete rewrite anyway >> so I would be scared to add too much to it beyond the basics. >> >> >> 2. Programme Guide (or EPG...EPG is kind of a nerdy acronym), this >> provides valuable information for the user in terms of finding what is >> on now...and what is on in the future. There are two different kinds >> of EPG layouts, one is very complex with a longer timeline to view >> (Full Programme Guide), and one is very simple, easier to use and >> access but the timeline is very short and limiting (Now & Next Guide). >> >> >> I have linked below this paragraph to some old mockups from a Mac >> project I worked on previously called CenterStage. (you might see some >> resemblences to the old Elisa as Fluendo *cough* ripped mY design off >> before I got here *cough*...if you are interested in the full Flash >> demo then see the Vimeo video here: http://www.vimeo.com/1366668) > > I've looked at these. I think the full program guide looks very nice. > > To be honest, looking at the Now and Next, it just looks like a more > wasteful version of the full program guide. Let me explain. About a 3rd > of the space on the screen is unused. I'd rather have it show data. That > could be packed with stuff coming on after "coming up next". If you do > that, you basically get the full program guide again. The only real > difference is that all the columns line up. Yeah... Im a minimal guy, you dont see much in Moovida that is 'packed' so this is why I was taken a bit with the Now & Next idea. That isnt to say I dont recognise the issues with it, all of which you point out well. In terms of work load though... this style of EPG is a lot faster to implement and to produce. (nothing new to develop that we dont already have I think?). I imagine a Full Programme guide would require some new widgets and UI constructs. Off the top of my head we would need to make each bar in the UI a certain length based on how long the show is (so a 30 minute show would appear shorter than a 1 hour show) I don't know if we can do that in the UI at present? (Then again, Florian did some stuff for 1.0 I thought we couldn't do so... never know) > > The benefit to the lining up is that you can see whats coming on next if > its several hours out. The draw back is, its not very apparent that a > show wont be on for a while at a glance like the regular full program > guide. Yes very true. Pros and cons to each guide though. This is one of this version failings I agree. > > What might be best is a toggle on the full program guide that switches > back and forth between shows taking up space proportional to how long > they run, to showing X number of shows in a grid like the now and next. > X number of shows can be a setting so if you want the really uncluttered > view of just 2, you can have that. Ok, I have some concern over the remote control usage of something like this. We only have 6 buttons and a full program guide uses left and right (to go back and forth over between now and next columns) and up and down (to select a TV channel row). The play button and the back/menu button are used as well to select or go back. So the question is, and below where you talk about it... how would I be able to select a button to toggle? Then deactivate such a toggle? > > That kind of solves the drawback to the regular full program guide. If > you are looking at now, and the channel you are on's movie doesn't end > for a while, and you want to see whats on after it, you press a key to > toggle the other mode, and you can see whats on right after it. you can > press the key again and it goes back to what you were looking at. That > beets scrolling to the right until you find the next show, then > scrolling back to the left until you get back to "now" or whenever your > trying to look at. > Ok, I'll be annoying an say 'Im lost' so what I'd ask you to do here is to get a bit of paper and a pen... sketch this process out as clearly as you can to explain it visually and upload it for us all to see. > As for cleaning up the Program Guide a bit, I do like Michał's > suggestion of channel catagories. > > Under that, when you select the Program Guide, you get: > > All > "Category 1" > "Category 2" > > Where Category's are user defined strings which have a list of channels > associated with it. If you haven't assigned any, you just automatically > get All > > When an item is selected, the Program guide comes up with only those > lists of channels. All shows all channels. How about in a later version we do this... We create a 'Favorite Channels' subsection then... Where we can elsewhere in the UI, we allow the user to add a channel to a 'Favorites Group' or 'Create New Favorites Group & Add Channel'. This is effectively acting like a playlist and even playlist creation. So the user can dump a channel into an existing group they previously created... or create a new group, give it a name via our keyboard (e.g. Wife's Favorites)and then add the channel to it? (you just saw a brief glimpse into some of the playlist creation thinking I have been doing here :p). Of course, maybe rather than a seperate subsection of 'Favorites' we do what you say and add it is a menu structure for the EPG... first item being All as you describe. Hmmmm, I'll think about that one in my brian a bit. > >> >> >> Download mockups from my Fluendo share (be quick..wont be up for >> long): http://people.fluendo.com/dmcleod/CenterStage_Program_Guide.zip >> >> >> Here we have the sort of hierarchy for it, you will notice two >> different Programme guides here. (this work was a first draft, had a >> few problems). So, you have your traditional 'Full Programme Guide' >> which perhaps doesn't need much explanation. However, the thing about >> the full programme guide is, it is or can be very cluttered. Some >> guides like this also try to squeeze synopsis info on the same screen >> at the same time... so there is a danger of overload. In this >> mockup... I kept it light and simple. Click a Show, go to an >> information screen to view the information and perform actions. (the >> old school remote was just an icon I did as default if no artwork >> could be found). >> >> >> A more interesting technique that I saw when on holiday actually on >> believe me, an ugly looking PVR box was a 'Now & Next' TV guide. I >> liked it as it was a more simple, less cluttered was of previewing >> what was on now and coming up later. It was limited to only showing >> you that information only but, there was some beauty in the simplicity >> of it. So, I thought it would be cool to add to it in a simple way by >> allowing the user to click on the TV channel name and there you can >> see a full simple list of everything that is coming up on the channel >> during the next 24 hours. This guide would be great and would work but >> it needs to go hand in hand with a search feature so that you can at >> least, search a full 2 week database to schedule more long term shows. >> >> >> The type of EPG format we could use will actually will determine how >> the Schedules section is handled. > > Yeah. > >> >> >> >> >> 3. Recordings are a central depository to view all content you have >> recorded. Ordered by date this section lists every item recorded as >> well as the ability to 'watch now' or...'delete' to free up HD space >> and remove unwanted items. (ability to 'More option' a recording and >> push it to a relevant media library if this setting is turned off... >> see Point 5 below). > > Sounds about right. > >> Auto skipping commercials? Yeah would be awesome but don't kill >> ourselves to get that in place for version 1. > > Sure. I've been able to live with my parents tivo once I turned on 5 > second skip. I can live without auto commercial skip if there is good > skip forward/backward. Its just icing on the cake. > >> If only we had a better player and better seeking it might be easier >> for me to say not to worry. > > :/ > >> >> >> 4. Schedules, this is not the full blown schedule feature(s) as >> discussed previously (e.g. Season pass) This is more a list of shows >> the user has earmarked for future recording. > > Then s/Schedules/Upcoming Recordings/ > >> If the full blown EPG guide is used, then the user has the ability to >> see shows up to 2 weeks in advance (or more?). They should have the >> ability to 'mark them' for instant recording when the time comes. > > Myth has good UI here. It probably should be copied. It pops up a menu > that you can select "record just this show, record all instances of this > series, record all instances of this show on this channel, etc". Plus > other related recording options. Recording quality, anything conflicting > at this time, etc. > >> (note we need the ability to track and check instances of recording >> clashes). The user should again have the ability to remove/delete a >> previously scheduled show. >> >> >> 5. No real definition of settings at this juncture but, one springs to >> mind and that is 'Push All Recordings To Relevant Media Libraries >> Where Possible' (bit of a mouthfull). Basically, this means that when >> a recording is complete... it not only appears in your 'Recordings' >> subsection but also in Moovidas TV Section as well. > > That would be handy. > > It may confuse the user a bit though. Yeah, me too but just a little.... > > What is the behavior of this? Does it copy the recording there? Does it > just make a link? Does it move? What happens when a user deletes it from > one place? Does it delete it in the other? What happens if the > recordings are on different machines? It is a link... not a copy, just a two paths to the one file. e.g. delete from one section... it is also removed everywhere. > >> If a Movie is downloaded...it also appears in Moovidas Movie section. >> Music Video if known... etc etc. If something cannot be pushed then it >> sits in the Recordings section as default (Auto Push to Unclassified >> section too?). >> >> >> The other basic option as a setting is to set a 'time padding' which >> is to record say 2 additional minutes in advance of the shows start >> time..and two additional minutes at the end of a show. > > Myth does this as a per recording setting. Its in the schedule recording > ui. Yep... its good, just putting it on record :). > >> What this does is allow for a kind of safe guard in case the TV >> station runs a little early or late. Setting that buffer in the >> Settings might be useful (global setting, not per recording...maybe >> for v2 :p). >> >> >> >> >> >> >> QUESTIONS / WANTS / NEEDS >> >> >> - An absolute necessity is finding a solid online EPG that we can >> utilize and it should provide not only good metadata (e.g. show >> summary/synopsis) with airtime but also content type (e.g. Feature >> Film or Sporting Event). Keep in mind we have Genres coming for both >> Movies & TV Shows sections so, genre metadata would also be useful. > > Thats important. Being in the US, I'm stuck with SchedulesDirect Well, to mis if anything is uber plugable it is being able to work with different EPG's But, I trust everyone knows what they are doing for this. Im out of touch with this now after so long and not keeping up with online resources. (effectively stopped watching TV about 3 years ago).... except for Sport. > >> - TV station logos and artwork. Free to use artwork and obtaining that >> artwork neatly needs to be provided (possibly but we can work around >> it but it wont be as nice visually). If we deem it necessary to build >> this repository ourselves, Fluendo can host and setup a database and >> community structure for uploading this artwork for the plugin to use. >> Artwork needs to be provided in at least a 500px square size..anything >> smaller and we cant pull it off as the image size/quality is too low >> and will look like 'crepe'). >> >> >> - TV Show artwork, episode thumbnails or relevant artwork. Needed for >> the 'information screens' where artwork appears large. I know from >> experience (but also admit I am out of touch with this area) ...that >> getting thumbnails or artwork for for every show or any item in the >> EPG is not going to be possible. Consider that we have resources to >> use such as Amazon, TVDB and TheMovieDB as well as Google to do some >> clever things. >> >> >> - Multiple Tuner Card issues. Again, this has a tendency to go >> seriously wrong from a UX perspective and another one that can go up >> its own 'wazoo' and spoil the simplicity of the experience. Utilize >> additional tuner cards automatically and do not let the user have to >> worry about the details of how it works. 1 tuner card should always be >> free for LiveTV and should in my non-techy mind always be free for >> this use (else we dilute that experience and cause user > > Absolutely positively 100% not. :) Wooooah, see my comments to Michaels feedback on this in another mail. Basically what I am saying is, what annoys me about other PVR software is the fact that they do that juggling, and then constantly make the user think about how to juggle it. Then, as they are juggling, LiveTV loses features it had before like pausing. One of the best things the Sky+ box did (it is a PVR box for Sky satellite TV in the United Kingdom) was make a hard hard choice and say. "Nope... this tuner (of the two) is only for liveTV". That removed all complexity on the user end but... you lose a tuner card as a result as it is fenced off for this only. So it is a big tough hard decision. Again, willing to explore how this can be made simple. if not, also willing to explore the idea that we have a setting to 'use all tuners for scheduled recordings' (Off/On). I can't say that strongly enough. I > hardly ever use LiveTV, and have only two tuners. I often pick up shows > in time conflict with the extra tuner. If its sitting idle, I'd loose > about 1/3 of the recordings that come in now. > >> confusion...e.g. "What? I could pause live shows before?"). > > Live Tv really is just a recording that is happening and playing back at > the same time. Its always fine to pause it. Long as I don't start losing features when I am watchng Live TV (e.g. pause a show) and we dont make the user juggle tuner cards. Then Im in for whatever you want to do. Again refer to previous comment above. > >> Additional tuner cards, are used to help record multiple items that >> the user schedules at the same time. So, user has three tuner cards? >> great two shows next wednesday both on at 4pm can be recorded at the >> same time using 2 of their 3 tuner cards. The other tuner card is >> taken and exclusively used for LiveTV as mentioned previously. > > Deal breaker. Very bad usage of an expensive piece of hardware. Plus it > reduces viewing selection. > As a final comment... I 100% totally understand your reaction to this. Im asking the tough questions to keep the UI consistent. > > Heck. I find the nonshared PVR use of tuners deplorable in general. If > you have two Tivo's, its very hard to schedule both so that you aren't > wasting the tuners. Myth is a very good design for this sort of thing. > You can share recordings between two Tivo's, but you cant schedule over > both. > > The greatest feature of a PVR is that you have a bunch of recordings, > and therefore options, for what to watch when you sit down at the TV. > Wasting a tuner is a waste of a choice in what to watch. > >> - The greatest headache of all of this PVR thing is how to deal with >> time/schedule conflicts and how to recognise them. Again, keeping it >> simple. If the user has a clash in their schedule and we can't record >> the show they want due to that clash... we need to be able to tell >> them "woops - sorry, cant do that as there is a schedule clash with >> Show 'X'". Nothing more complicated than that right? > > Yes. > > A list of whats going to be recorded helps with that. Also, I like > mythweb's EPG for that. It shows you whats going to be recorded, and > whats not going to be recorded, and reasons why. For example, putting a > colored dotted box around the show saying that its not recorded because > its already been recorded. If you haven't used myth before, Id suggest > installing it and play around with it a bit. They really have worked > most of the kinks out of a PVR UI. We should learn from them. > >> >> >> - More of a question, is it best if the EPG guide was downloaded and >> stored locally on the users HD and was updated once a day rather than >> accessing it on an outside server every time? > > SchedualsDirect requires that it only happen periodically. > > > Now, I want to back up a little bit. Your getting into implementation of > a PVR, not the UI involved in writing a PVR plugin... If the PVR plugin > accesses a PVR like Myth, it can just get that information from the Myth > database. If you are implementing a PVR from scratch, you have to worry > about it. Shouldn't this be up to the plugin to figure out? > >> Artwork thumbnails, station logos etc. is maybe 'on the cloud'? Or >> again, if not too 'heavy' cached or stored locally. >> >> >> - This is more of a general note: Make sure the user when watching >> LiveTV cannot record the show if it is already in their schedule and >> recording anyway. Basically what I am saying is, don't allow a show to >> somehow be recorded twice or duplicated. > > Sure. > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> WHAT IS A PLUGIN & HOW DOES IT 'WORK' >> >> >> Every plugin we create for Moovida exists 'on its own' and by that, I >> mean it is a single entity or a unique portal with direct usable >> content or hierarchal structure. The user downloads it from the >> Plugins section (via Available Plugins) and it is stored in their >> Plugin Library. The reason for this is, it gives visibility to all >> plugins the user has installed in one central place. More importantly, >> it also allows the user to 'see' installed plugins that do not have a >> UI so they can be removed. Granted, we don't have such a plugin yet >> but we could and probably will. (e.g. add album reviews from >> RollingStone.com in the Music section). The plugin is also pushed into >> 'Internet Media' if it fits within that media structure. (at the >> moment all plugins do, but this wont always be the case). >> >> >> Above is just a quick overview of what happens in Moovida currently. >> Now, one feature that is coming and is missing, is the ability to put >> a plugin directly into the Main Menu (only interested in YouTube, >> Jamendo & Grooveshark?...thats all you want on the Main Menu?...no >> problem). >> >> >> However, some plugins may not have this ability to be added to the >> Main Menu... for instance (this is relevant to my final point below), >> some plugins might not do anything more than add a new option for an >> Artist inside the music section or a button in the player. For >> instance, maybe in the more options screen for an artist, a plugin is >> created that allows the user to see all pictures of the band via >> Last.FM using their API. No 'UI' for that really...and no 'portal' >> like YouTube, or the other plugins currently. >> >> >> Reason I am going through all of this is, it is important that the >> developer community out there (you guys) be made aware of this now, so >> as not to prevent some complications in the future. It is a bigger >> discussion that needs to happen at Fluendo as well in all honesty. >> >> >> Finally, I actually get to my point (haha!): This plugin that we >> create for PVR, I am feeling that it actually does two things to 'play >> nice' in Moovida: >> >> >> 1. This PVR plugin exists 'on its own'. It has its own 'portal' with a >> hierarchy and a dedicated UI. It should appear in Plugins > Library >> when it is downloaded. (so obviously it isn't 'Internet Media' so >> technically it will be the first plugin to not appear there). > > Sure. What does the UI look like if you have two such plugins loaded? Is > that possible? What about instances per backend? To me, a myth client > plugin should look like the UPNP server stuff. You see a MythBackend > show up in the list of servers, and when you select it, then you get the > UI you described. We already do what I am describing... go to Plugins > Library... there is YouTube. Go To Internet Media > Video... YouTueb as well!. So, I am describing loosely a similar process here. So, imagine it as a kind of 'link' to the same place. > > >> 2. The plugin by default adds the hierarchy described earlier to the >> current TV Shows section in Moovida currently. The user of course can >> turn this default off in the plugins individual settings to stop this >> behaviour. Doing so means the only way to access and use our PVR >> plugin is via, Plugins > Library when that default setting is turned >> off. > > Sure. > > Kevin > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 1 Jul 2009, at 10:31, Michał Sawicz wrote: >> >> > I almost replied yesterday but decided to leave it for today :) >> > >> > Dnia 2009-06-30, wto o godzinie 16:39 -0700, Kevin Fox pisze: >> > > I guess I'm just annoyed by having to press down when it first >> > > starts >> > > up >> > > to go from "live tv" to "recordings" all the time since I hardly >> > > ever >> > > use it. ;) >> > >> > Edit the menu XML files :) >> > >> > > > Yeah I'm keen to agree on that. We should, though, try to >> > > > abstract >> > > the >> > > > MythTV connection wherever possible to be replaced simply by >> > > > another >> > > > backend when one's available. >> > > >> > > Totally agreed. I've been disappointed with their lack of >> > > abstraction >> > > myself. Do you know if the DLNA spec has support for PVR's yet? If >> > > it >> > > does, it might be interesting to wrap up MythBackend to support >> > > it. >> > > Then >> > > Moovida stays neutral, and it already has good upnp support. We >> > > just >> > > extend it to support upnp + pvr >> > >> > AFAIK UPnP/DLNA will have to be extended for most of PVR uses. >> > Wrapping >> > Myth in UPnP - I wonder if fixing and extending their implementation >> > would be difficult. >> > >> > > > That's one more flaws of Myth - the >> > > > disconnection of back-/front-end is so tightly connected it >> > > > hurts. I >> > > > know, it was the easiest and most efficient way to go. >> > > >> > > more then that, when myth was started, I think the performance >> > > aspect >> > > was rather critical. It had to be coded that way. Now a days, not >> > > so >> > > much. >> > >> > Proberbly. >> > >> > > > Subclass? I don't think that's needed, we could just feed it up >> > > > with >> > > > additional content where it's applicable. No need for a 'TV >> > > > Shows >> > > from >> > > > TV' and another 'TV Shows from hard disk' sections. >> > > >> > > This is again the, is Moovida a Media Renderer or is it a PVR? If >> > > its >> > > a >> > > PVR, it should be integrated nicely like you say. This would be >> > > like >> > > Myth in that its hard to use one client to talk to multiple >> > > backends. >> > >> > I think one doesn't exclude the other. We can support multiple PVR >> > backends and simply 'mark' some of them for integration in the main >> > UI. >> > Others could be accessible through the normal 'Other computers' >> > entry. >> > >> > > Say I have Moovida with its own backend on a laptop and I bring it >> > > to >> > > your house.. It would be great if the Moovida on your tv could >> > > detect >> > > via UPNP the laptops existence, and play anything on it, seeing >> > > all >> > > metadata. You could then select a file and even have it copy to >> > > your >> > > local box with metadata in tact. If the PVR functionality was too >> > > tightly coupled, that might be difficult. >> > >> > That I think is a different matter, Elisa once was a UPnP >> > MediaServer >> > but that wasn't ported to 0.5 series and still didn't come back. But >> > I >> > think the UPnP MediaServer in Moovida, once it comes in, should be >> > able >> > to distribute all content it provides through the normal UI. Coupled >> > with transcoding on the fly you could have your PS3 or any UPnP >> > enabled >> > stuff playing anything Elisa could. >> > Also, there were talks about socializing through Elisa, some work's >> > even >> > been done through Telepathy. My dream would be to have a 'My >> > Moovida', >> > 'Your Moovida' contacts and be able to paste a link for playback in >> > a >> > chat with any of them. What's more, Philippe and Frank work on >> > making >> > UPnP available via Telepathy for remote locations [1]. THAT will be >> > neat :) Just select your friend's Moovida contact and you're on, >> > browsing his library through the intartubes. Of course some level of >> > access control would be needed - we could easily leverage buddy >> > authorization here. >> > >> > > I kind of think the PVR functionality should work like the UPNP >> > > code. >> > > You select a backend (or it picks the only one for you by >> > > default), >> > > then >> > > you can do stuff with it. >> > >> > Again, one does not exclude the other, it would be doable to have >> > multiple backends attached, maybe marking some of them as 'local' >> > and >> > that one would integrate with the rest of Moovida's UI. >> > >> > > > I hope this will happen, yes. That's why we're talking MythTV >> > > > and/or >> > > > GDVBD, not writing our own backend. >> > > >> > > So what we need then is a PVR plugin abstraction that is good >> > > enough >> > > that it can support both, and even better, both at the same time. >> > > I >> > > may >> > > have stuff in my old myth server for a while while setting up my >> > > new >> > > gdvbd server and want to run both concurrently for a while. >> > > Another >> > > reason I don't quite like merging menus with TV Shows/Movie >> > >> > Yeah whatever you like - you want it merged, have it merged. No? No >> > problem. >> > >> > > > That's about it, I'm running out of 5-centses ;). >> > > >> > > Hehe. Thats a lot of 5-centses. But your helping me prove my >> > > point. >> > > Doing a backend of a PVR well is hard. Its way way more then just >> > > copying a stream of data from a card and putting it in a file. >> > > Does >> > > gdvbd do any of that well now? If not, its a ways out. In the mean >> > > time, >> > > I'll stick to myth backend. It mostly works pretty well. :) >> > >> > Yeah it does quite a lot, LiveTV, Scheduled recordings (not so >> > advanced >> > as myth but still), EPG data. The basic functionality is there. >> > >> > > > I'm not completely against MythTV, I just want us not to fall in >> > > > the >> > > > same deep, dark and smelly hole they've fell into. We need a >> > > > fast-release button somewhere so they won't drag us in. >> > > >> > > I'm worried from the opposite direction. If we try to rewrite >> > > mythbackend, we're going to get stuck in a worse smelly hole >> > > because >> > > we >> > > will have a lot less experience in how a pvr scheduler should >> > > really >> > > work. Other projects have tried and failed to create a PVR that >> > > worked >> > > better then Myth. >> > > >> > > Making it pluggable in Moovida using its great plugin mechanism >> > > and >> > > keeping it abstract as possible gives you the easy button to hit, >> > > provided there is anything else to jump to. >> > >> > Yup. >> > >> > [1] http://base-art.net/Articles/108/ >> > >> > -- >> > Michał Sawicz <[email protected]> >> > >> >> David McLeod >> Senior Designer & UI Lead >> >> >> >> >> Fluendo S.A. >> World Trade Center Edificio Norte Pl.2 >> 08039 BARCELONA SPAIN >> Tel: +34 936 002 323 >> >> >> Skype: Daiode >> Jabber/GMail: [email protected] >> Email: [email protected] >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>
