On Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 12:10:13AM -0800, Tracy R Reed wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 02, 2003 at 11:12:33PM +0000, Ian Clarke spake thusly:
> > > If you expect only a .08% psuccess
> > 
> > How do you know that 92% of requests aren't for data that isn't in the 
> > network.
> 
> You are implying that frost is the cause of this? If that's the case I
> think the frost project has to die because it is killing the rest of the
> network. But I'm not sure that it is. It would be nice if there were a

That is not a solution. Frost works, somebody would reimplement it, we
have no enforcement capability against them, and if frost died now
somebody would reintroduce it post 1.0 and mess up a network adapted to
no Frost. We need to make Freenet work WITH Frost.

> psuccess measurement which did not include KSK's. With an 8% psuccess rate

Impossible. KSKs are the same as SSKs. HOWEVER, we could measure
psuccess of CHKs... which are very unlikely to be polled, and hold the
majority of real content.

> I would have to insert a splitfile with around 1000% redundancy to be able
> to get it on the first try. Is that what you propose that we do? Or do we
> just click retry a whole lot of times and cross our fingers? I haven't
> been able to receive TFE for a couple days and my node has 20G of data in
> the store and a DS-3 and has been up for months. Others can retrieve it so
> it was definitely inserted today. I recall someone on the channel once
> reported a 25% psuccess and you were impressed. Doesn't it seem odd to you
> that you would buy that as a possible realistic number and now you ask us
> to consider that perhaps 92% of requests are for data that isn't in the
> network?

Well, I'll implement a CHK-only psuccess immediately. Thanks for the
idea.
> 
> Freenet is still has a long way to go to get away from alchemy. It's as if
> there is no scientific process. The above is a good example. Regarding the
> major routing bugs that were found: Wouldn't some basic sanity checking
> have caught those? I suggested breaking out some of the methods in the
> routing table and providing some inputs and checking that sane outputs
> were produced and he seemed to scoff.

Not necessarily, how do you test routing?

> 
> Reskill made a good point also: The 692 network DID perform better than
> the unstable network when the unstable network had just as few nodes. We
> found this out when unstable forked into its own network. Looks like the
> theory that any build would work well with so few nodes was incorrect too.

That was because of the anti-NGR bug.
> 
> > For the millionth time, just because there is no obvious specialization 
> > doesn't mean that something is wrong!  The specialization might not be 
> > obvious for any number of reasons other than that Freenet's routing 
> > isn't doing what it should.
> 
> You have been saying this since before the two major bugs (and probably a
> number of smaller ones) were found that ensured that routing would never
> work. Had everyone believed it then perhaps the bugs would not have been
> found. Why should we believe it now? If the routing is that "nonobvious"
> then it is too complicated to actually work. I still don't understand how
> freenet will ever scale without specialization. The need for
> specialization was made pretty clear in your original papers and the
> simulations.
> 
> I have a challenge for you: Name one other computer program that works yet
> nobody can explain how. And you intend to put Freenet on this list? I just
> don't buy the "nonobvious" routing theory.
> 
> -- 
> Tracy Reed
> http://copilotconsulting.com
-- 
Matthew J Toseland - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Freenet Project Official Codemonkey - http://freenetproject.org/
ICTHUS - Nothing is impossible. Our Boss says so.

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