On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 12:56 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hi Edy, > > > On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 12:07 AM, Eduard Moraru <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 4:01 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > Hi Caty, > > > > > > On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > So I think is a good idea to provide the ability to create > > > > wikis/spaces/page on their Indexes pages. In the case of Wiki Manager > > > this > > > > was removed in http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-9490 but if we > > re-add > > > it > > > > we could standardize the creation of entities in their context (just > > like > > > > we do it on ColorThemes WebHome or on on Blog.WebHome). > > > > > > > > > > Exactly :-) I'm +1 for this. > > > > > > > > > > But even if we make this improvement, I still would want to have the > > > > ability to create wikis/spaces/pages in the Add menu. > > > > > > > > > > As I've said before, I don't agree with this. Though I might be ok to > > keep > > > the "Add space" action in there, with the improvements suggested by > Edy, > > I > > > strongly believe that the "Create new wiki" feature shouldn't be there. > > > It's an infrequent action with strong consequences. It should be > > available > > > as a tool from the main wiki, but definitely not from every page. > Again, > > > how often does any user create a new wiki? Even for a large > organization, > > > it will be mostly admins, and it will happen maybe a couple times a > week > > > after XWiki is launched internally. > > > > > > So in the end we have an action that is performed by *very few people, > a > > > handful of times*, and we put it on *every single page in the main wiki > > and > > > all sub-wikis*. I'm afraid that keeping all 3 actions in the same > button > > is > > > consistency for consistency's sake, but it just doesn't match XWiki > > users' > > > behavior, nor their expectations. > > > > > > Besides consistency, what is the rationale for having all 3 actions in > > one > > > place? How do you back up your reasoning with actual user behavior? In > > your > > > personal experience, how often do you use the "create wiki" button in > its > > > current location? > > > > > > > Big -1 for this! > > > > It`s the *whole point why we`ve introduced Workspaces* (or wikis, or call > > it whatever you like). The whole idea is to empower the user to create > his > > workspace where he can freely collaborate with his peers and install > > whatever applications they want. You do have to consider the fact that > you > > may have been exposed to tight organizational usages of XWiki where its > > users are the slaves of the admin and don`t/can`t really do anything > > without his approval. However, I personally (and hope am not alone here), > > want to make XWiki more than this and to allow it to be used by more > > open-minded organizations that empower their users and their > collaboration. > > > > I fully agree with this. However, I see organizations using XWiki every day > that > > Again, it's not about preventing users from creating new wikis. My proposal > is about moving an infrequent action (at least compared to the "create > page" action) to a better-suited location. I don't see how that's not > empowering users. > > Also, XWiki is a tool that is supposed to improve collaboration, not > > diminish it into "misticism" by calling the simple task of creating a > wiki > > (which is part of XWiki's data model and, with a new model implementation > > could be even more seamlessly integrated without using primitive/rigid > > storage solutions such as databases) "an infrequent action with strong > > consequences". > > > > I'm calling it an infrequent action because it IS an infrequent action. > Look at how we use it ourselves on the XWiki.org family of sites for > instance: how often do you create a new sub-wiki, as opposed to adding new > pages? XWiki.org is a knowledge base flavor that is not open to the public, i.e. as opposed to something like wikia[1] or any other open wiki hosting provider. It is not a good example. Don`t forget that XWiki is, after all and among many others, a wiki. You are talking here about the default behavior and features and, IMO, by default it should respect its nature. Perhaps a better example would be an intranet where people collaborate on projects, creating a wiki for each new project. Anyway, to put it short, all the valid reasons for which we went along with "Workspaces". Are you suggesting it was a bad idea and we should have just kept the old wiki manager which was perfectly fine for creating use-cases like the ones you describe? [1] http://www.wikia.com/Wikia > There's nothing mystic about looking at basic data points. > > Oh, and don`t forget flavors, that are supposed to build even more on the > > above mentioned, so yes, you do need to create wikis easily and yes, you > do > > need to promote that in the UI so that user's discover it and not bury it > > in some livetable in a space/page that users are intimidated by. > > > > Not bury it, put it in a logical place: the create button next to the list > of items of the same type that already exist. > > According to the "promote it in the UI" logic, why not give every single > option in XWiki a button on all pages? It would be amazing. > < > http://colemancountyinstitute.wikispaces.com/file/view/microsoft.jpg/146633399/microsoft.jpg > > > That was the whole point of the Add button, to mask all this complexity and keep it away from the main UI. If you ask me, we risk failing a bit at this with the new App Bar/Panel, but that's another topic. :) If you read again my message, my only focus was on CRUD operations on XWiki's model, which is what we were doing until this point and which I would really like to keep doing since it is, IMO, the best way to go. Thanks, Eduard > > Thanks, > > Guillaume > > Perhaps it's just a problem of perception at this point. > > > > Thanks, > > Eduard > > > > > > > > > > IMO is not one way or the other (and I don't agree with the duplication > > > > argument). One way of creating entries (the Add menu way) is more > > > generic, > > > > while the other way (contextual form placement on the > > Homepages/Indexes) > > > is > > > > specific to the entity type. > > > > > > > > > > I don't mind having more that one button for an action in specific > cases. > > > But I don't think the "Create wiki" action is one of those cases. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Guillaume > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Caty > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 2:16 PM, Eduard Moraru <[email protected] > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 1:31 PM, Guillaume Lerouge < > > > [email protected]> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:03 PM, Eduard Moraru < > > > [email protected]> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Guillaume, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have started a new discussion [1] on the topic of the new > > > location > > > > of > > > > > > the > > > > > > > Add menu in Flamingo which is, IMO, the real problem here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll answer on this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > However, I stand by my point that creating a wiki or a space are > > > > > different > > > > > > actions compared from adding a new page and as thus should be > > treated > > > > > > differently. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regarding your actual proposal, I`d be inclined to -1 it, as IMO > it > > > > makes > > > > > > > basic CRUD operations on the wiki model harder to perform (i.e. > > > > harder > > > > > to > > > > > > > find), and what we`d like to do is help people create content > and > > > > > > > structure, not the other way around. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree with the logic but I'm not sure I'm 100% in line with the > > > > > > conclusion. As you said, the goal is to help users create and > > > structure > > > > > > their content. > > > > > > > > > > > > Right now, when looking at existing installs, I often see cases > > where > > > > > users > > > > > > created several spaces with similar names (which doesn't really > > help > > > > > > structure information). This is mainly because they didn't know > > that > > > a > > > > > > space with a similar name already existed. Similarly, you > wouldn't > > > want > > > > > > someone to create a "Communication" wiki if the > > > > "MarketingCommunication" > > > > > > wiki already exists. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What I read from your example above is that we can improve the > create > > > > > page/space/wiki UIs to have a section that does a kind of suggest > to > > > the > > > > > user based on the name of the new entry he wants to create. We > could > > > have > > > > > something like "The pages/spaces/wikis/etc. above already exist. > Are > > > you > > > > > sure you want to create a new <userEnteredEntityName> > > > > page/space/wiki/etc. > > > > > instead of using one of the above?" > > > > > > > > > > We could go as far as to force the user to check a checkbox before > > the > > > > > "Create" button becomes enabled/clickable. This could either be a > > > > > configuration option, based on the desire/intent/wishes of the > admin > > of > > > > > that wiki/space. > > > > > > > > > > With a bit of effort, this could be done consistently for the > entire > > > > > "/create/" action and its plugged-in template providers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is why I'm proposing to place "Create" buttons in context. I > > see > > > > at > > > > > > least 3 places where this could be useful: > > > > > > > > > > > > - "Create wiki" button on http:// > > > > <server>/xwiki/bin/view/WikiManager/ > > > > > > - "Create space" button on hypothetical > > > > > > http://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/Main/SpacesIndex > > > > > > (similar to what we already have on the Dashboard) > > > > > > - "Create user" button on http://<server> > > > > > > /xwiki/bin/view/Main/UserDirectory > > > > > > > > > > > > So from my point of view, by putting those buttons on those pages > > > they > > > > > > would actually be easier to find and understand for end-users. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This will not solve anything if the user is already too lazy to > > search > > > > for > > > > > existing entries before creating one. The one he wishes to create > > might > > > > be > > > > > on the second page of the livetable and the lazy user will just go > > > ahead > > > > > and create the similar entry. > > > > > > > > > > For this to be relatively effective in reducing duplication, we > would > > > > have > > > > > to implement something on the lines of what I have described above > > with > > > > the > > > > > "reuse sugestion". > > > > > > > > > > I`m not particularly against this approach (of adding create > options > > in > > > > the > > > > > list), since we were already doing this at some point and in some > > > places, > > > > > but I`m still -1 for scattering the create logic in various > locations > > > > > instead of using the centralized "Add" menu. If we don`t, we will > > have > > > > > 99999 pages all inside the Main space and that's it. How`s that > for a > > > > wiki > > > > > gardening nightmare? :) > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > Eduard > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > Guillaume > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > Eduard > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- > > > > > > > [1] http://xwiki.markmail.org/thread/jqbcj4p4ryc56sms > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:39 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < > > > > > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We improved the things a bit by implementing > > > > > > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-10928 > > > > > > > > Now users can more rapidly create pages by using the implicit > > > value > > > > > of > > > > > > > > 'Add'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Having all the option (Create Wiki, Create Space, Create > Page) > > in > > > > the > > > > > > > menu > > > > > > > > is important IMO since you can create spaces (and wikis) from > > > > > anywhere > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > the wiki. You don't need to be in a certain location to do > this > > > > > action. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree about having a Space Index of some sort and have a > > > > consistent > > > > > > way > > > > > > > > of localizing/navigating Wikis/Spaces/Pages. Something > similar > > to > > > > > this > > > > > > > idea > > > > > > > > was the Explorer proposal > > > > > > > > > > http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/ExplorerApp > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another related issue to this subject is > > > > > > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-9440, but again I think > > > > > XWIKI-10928 > > > > > > > > <http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-10928> improved the > > problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Caty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:04 PM, Guillaume Lerouge < > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Devs, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm currently testing XE 6.2, it's a great release, I love > > the > > > > new > > > > > > > look a > > > > > > > > > lot - well done guys! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a quick remark that is related to the new location > of > > > the > > > > > > > "Create" > > > > > > > > > button. I think we should move the "create wiki" and > "create > > > > space" > > > > > > > > options > > > > > > > > > from where they are located now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The "Create wiki" button could be moved under the list of > > wikis > > > > on > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > page: http://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/WikiManager/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We would probably need a similar "space index" page with > the > > > > > "Create > > > > > > > > space" > > > > > > > > > button there, a bit like what we have on the dashboard now: > > > > http:// > > > > > > > > > <server>/xwiki/bin/view/Dashboard/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The objective being that when doing those create actions, > > they > > > > > would > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > done with the context of the wikis / spaces that already > > exist. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is also a bit confusing for users is that since > > creating a > > > > new > > > > > > > wiki > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > much much bigger and less frequent than creating a new > page, > > > the > > > > > > action > > > > > > > > > should not be available from every single page. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This issue has become much more salient than before to me > > > because > > > > > of > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > new location of the "Create" button. What's your opinion > > about > > > > > this? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Guillaume > > > _______________________________________________ > devs mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
