On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 4:01 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hi Caty, > > On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > So I think is a good idea to provide the ability to create > > wikis/spaces/page on their Indexes pages. In the case of Wiki Manager > this > > was removed in http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-9490 but if we re-add > it > > we could standardize the creation of entities in their context (just like > > we do it on ColorThemes WebHome or on on Blog.WebHome). > > > > Exactly :-) I'm +1 for this. > > > > But even if we make this improvement, I still would want to have the > > ability to create wikis/spaces/pages in the Add menu. > > > > As I've said before, I don't agree with this. Though I might be ok to keep > the "Add space" action in there, with the improvements suggested by Edy, I > strongly believe that the "Create new wiki" feature shouldn't be there. > It's an infrequent action with strong consequences. It should be available > as a tool from the main wiki, but definitely not from every page. Again, > how often does any user create a new wiki? Even for a large organization, > it will be mostly admins, and it will happen maybe a couple times a week > after XWiki is launched internally. > > This is already the case. The wiki button is displayed only if you have the appropiate rights: admin or you were gave explicitly the 'Create Wiki' right. If you log in with a normal user you don't see the button. Thanks, Caty > So in the end we have an action that is performed by *very few people, a > handful of times*, and we put it on *every single page in the main wiki and > all sub-wikis*. I'm afraid that keeping all 3 actions in the same button is > consistency for consistency's sake, but it just doesn't match XWiki users' > behavior, nor their expectations. > > Besides consistency, what is the rationale for having all 3 actions in one > place? How do you back up your reasoning with actual user behavior? In your > personal experience, how often do you use the "create wiki" button in its > current location? > > IMO is not one way or the other (and I don't agree with the duplication > > argument). One way of creating entries (the Add menu way) is more > generic, > > while the other way (contextual form placement on the Homepages/Indexes) > is > > specific to the entity type. > > > > I don't mind having more that one button for an action in specific cases. > But I don't think the "Create wiki" action is one of those cases. > > Thanks, > > Guillaume > > > > Thanks, > > Caty > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 2:16 PM, Eduard Moraru <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 1:31 PM, Guillaume Lerouge < > [email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:03 PM, Eduard Moraru < > [email protected]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Guillaume, > > > > > > > > > > I have started a new discussion [1] on the topic of the new > location > > of > > > > the > > > > > Add menu in Flamingo which is, IMO, the real problem here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll answer on this thread. > > > > > > > > However, I stand by my point that creating a wiki or a space are > > > different > > > > actions compared from adding a new page and as thus should be treated > > > > differently. > > > > > > > > Regarding your actual proposal, I`d be inclined to -1 it, as IMO it > > makes > > > > > basic CRUD operations on the wiki model harder to perform (i.e. > > harder > > > to > > > > > find), and what we`d like to do is help people create content and > > > > > structure, not the other way around. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree with the logic but I'm not sure I'm 100% in line with the > > > > conclusion. As you said, the goal is to help users create and > structure > > > > their content. > > > > > > > > Right now, when looking at existing installs, I often see cases where > > > users > > > > created several spaces with similar names (which doesn't really help > > > > structure information). This is mainly because they didn't know that > a > > > > space with a similar name already existed. Similarly, you wouldn't > want > > > > someone to create a "Communication" wiki if the > > "MarketingCommunication" > > > > wiki already exists. > > > > > > > > > > What I read from your example above is that we can improve the create > > > page/space/wiki UIs to have a section that does a kind of suggest to > the > > > user based on the name of the new entry he wants to create. We could > have > > > something like "The pages/spaces/wikis/etc. above already exist. Are > you > > > sure you want to create a new <userEnteredEntityName> > > page/space/wiki/etc. > > > instead of using one of the above?" > > > > > > We could go as far as to force the user to check a checkbox before the > > > "Create" button becomes enabled/clickable. This could either be a > > > configuration option, based on the desire/intent/wishes of the admin of > > > that wiki/space. > > > > > > With a bit of effort, this could be done consistently for the entire > > > "/create/" action and its plugged-in template providers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is why I'm proposing to place "Create" buttons in context. I see > > at > > > > least 3 places where this could be useful: > > > > > > > > - "Create wiki" button on http:// > > <server>/xwiki/bin/view/WikiManager/ > > > > - "Create space" button on hypothetical > > > > http://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/Main/SpacesIndex > > > > (similar to what we already have on the Dashboard) > > > > - "Create user" button on http://<server> > > > > /xwiki/bin/view/Main/UserDirectory > > > > > > > > So from my point of view, by putting those buttons on those pages > they > > > > would actually be easier to find and understand for end-users. > > > > > > > > > > This will not solve anything if the user is already too lazy to search > > for > > > existing entries before creating one. The one he wishes to create might > > be > > > on the second page of the livetable and the lazy user will just go > ahead > > > and create the similar entry. > > > > > > For this to be relatively effective in reducing duplication, we would > > have > > > to implement something on the lines of what I have described above with > > the > > > "reuse sugestion". > > > > > > I`m not particularly against this approach (of adding create options in > > the > > > list), since we were already doing this at some point and in some > places, > > > but I`m still -1 for scattering the create logic in various locations > > > instead of using the centralized "Add" menu. If we don`t, we will have > > > 99999 pages all inside the Main space and that's it. How`s that for a > > wiki > > > gardening nightmare? :) > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Eduard > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Guillaume > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > Eduard > > > > > > > > > > ---------- > > > > > [1] http://xwiki.markmail.org/thread/jqbcj4p4ryc56sms > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:39 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < > > > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > We improved the things a bit by implementing > > > > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-10928 > > > > > > Now users can more rapidly create pages by using the implicit > value > > > of > > > > > > 'Add'. > > > > > > > > > > > > Having all the option (Create Wiki, Create Space, Create Page) in > > the > > > > > menu > > > > > > is important IMO since you can create spaces (and wikis) from > > > anywhere > > > > in > > > > > > the wiki. You don't need to be in a certain location to do this > > > action. > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree about having a Space Index of some sort and have a > > consistent > > > > way > > > > > > of localizing/navigating Wikis/Spaces/Pages. Something similar to > > > this > > > > > idea > > > > > > was the Explorer proposal > > > > > > http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/ExplorerApp > > > > > > > > > > > > Another related issue to this subject is > > > > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-9440, but again I think > > > XWIKI-10928 > > > > > > <http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-10928> improved the problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Caty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:04 PM, Guillaume Lerouge < > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Devs, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm currently testing XE 6.2, it's a great release, I love the > > new > > > > > look a > > > > > > > lot - well done guys! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a quick remark that is related to the new location of > the > > > > > "Create" > > > > > > > button. I think we should move the "create wiki" and "create > > space" > > > > > > options > > > > > > > from where they are located now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The "Create wiki" button could be moved under the list of wikis > > on > > > > this > > > > > > > page: http://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/WikiManager/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We would probably need a similar "space index" page with the > > > "Create > > > > > > space" > > > > > > > button there, a bit like what we have on the dashboard now: > > http:// > > > > > > > <server>/xwiki/bin/view/Dashboard/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The objective being that when doing those create actions, they > > > would > > > > be > > > > > > > done with the context of the wikis / spaces that already exist. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is also a bit confusing for users is that since creating a > > new > > > > > wiki > > > > > > is > > > > > > > much much bigger and less frequent than creating a new page, > the > > > > action > > > > > > > should not be available from every single page. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This issue has become much more salient than before to me > because > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > > > new location of the "Create" button. What's your opinion about > > > this? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Guillaume > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > devs mailing list > > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > devs mailing list > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > devs mailing list > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > devs mailing list > > > > [email protected] > > > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > devs mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > devs mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > > > _______________________________________________ > devs mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
