On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 12:07 AM, Eduard Moraru <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hi, > > On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 4:01 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Hi Caty, > > > > On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > So I think is a good idea to provide the ability to create > > > wikis/spaces/page on their Indexes pages. In the case of Wiki Manager > > this > > > was removed in http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-9490 but if we > re-add > > it > > > we could standardize the creation of entities in their context (just > like > > > we do it on ColorThemes WebHome or on on Blog.WebHome). > > > > > > > Exactly :-) I'm +1 for this. > > > > > > > But even if we make this improvement, I still would want to have the > > > ability to create wikis/spaces/pages in the Add menu. > > > > > > > As I've said before, I don't agree with this. Though I might be ok to > keep > > the "Add space" action in there, with the improvements suggested by Edy, > I > > strongly believe that the "Create new wiki" feature shouldn't be there. > > It's an infrequent action with strong consequences. It should be > available > > as a tool from the main wiki, but definitely not from every page. Again, > > how often does any user create a new wiki? Even for a large organization, > > it will be mostly admins, and it will happen maybe a couple times a week > > after XWiki is launched internally. > > > > So in the end we have an action that is performed by *very few people, a > > handful of times*, and we put it on *every single page in the main wiki > and > > all sub-wikis*. I'm afraid that keeping all 3 actions in the same button > is > > consistency for consistency's sake, but it just doesn't match XWiki > users' > > behavior, nor their expectations. > > > > Besides consistency, what is the rationale for having all 3 actions in > one > > place? How do you back up your reasoning with actual user behavior? In > your > > personal experience, how often do you use the "create wiki" button in its > > current location? > > > > Big -1 for this! > > It`s the *whole point why we`ve introduced Workspaces* (or wikis, or call > it whatever you like). The whole idea is to empower the user to create his > workspace where he can freely collaborate with his peers and install > whatever applications they want. That would be great, but does the user get the point, this is far from being the case actually. From a user stand point, explaining the difference between a wiki and a space is not easy. I have experiment that again this morning, and I have a very knowledgeable person in front of me. After presenting the structure, the question, "why do we need multiple wikis, since we have spaces ?", followed a few moment later by "Does the search box at the top search into all wikis ?". > You do have to consider the fact that you > may have been exposed to tight organizational usages of XWiki where its > users are the slaves of the admin and don`t/can`t really do anything > without his approval. However, I personally (and hope am not alone here), > want to make XWiki more than this and to allow it to be used by more > open-minded organizations that empower their users and their collaboration. > > Also, XWiki is a tool that is supposed to improve collaboration, not > diminish it into "misticism" by calling the simple task of creating a wiki > (which is part of XWiki's data model and, with a new model implementation > could be even more seamlessly integrated without using primitive/rigid > storage solutions such as databases) "an infrequent action with strong > consequences". > Because this is an infrequent action with strong consequences in the way you organize your information. From the sysadmin POV, it means a new DB, with potential consequences on its backup and replication procedures. From the user POV, it is not the simple click of a button, after answering curious questions about user access, it goes to the distribution wizard, and, if she persistent, finally reach a new situation, where the she have to understand she is in a subwiki, and that all operation from there, like using the search box (the same search box, from his POV), will be scoped by that subwiki. Frankly, I do not understand this could not be called an "an infrequent action with strong consequences", compare to page creation (and space creation which is basically the same). > > Oh, and don`t forget flavors, that are supposed to build even more on the > above mentioned, so yes, you do need to create wikis easily and yes, you do > need to promote that in the UI so that user's discover it and not bury it > in some livetable in a space/page that users are intimidated by. > I have not seen any burying in Guillaume proposal, just a leveling of frequent actions and really less frequent one. That said, I doubt a lot of wiki will have that option available since most admin will limit the create_wiki right to knowledgeable users. And even, if the right is largely open, I doubt a lot of users will be persistent enough to fully finish the still complex process of creating a wiki. For sure, they will not do so very often, and therefore, that option will be in their way all the time for finally very casual usage. This is particularly true since this is the first option in the list. IMO the order of that list should be reversed: Page, Space, Wiki, from smallest to largest, from most frequent to less frequent, which was the order AFAIR in the initial Flamingo proposal. In regards to your CRUD principle, while you are fighting to keep the creation of wiki, why don't you expect to be able to add comments, attachment, object, classes, tags from the same button Add button ? These are frequent actions, that it would be nice to have there, and again was also (partly) in the initial Flamingo proposal. While the same proposal has never mentioned the Wiki in the Add menu. Finally, I am wondering why the proposal on which we agreed has been so much reworked during implementation. > > Perhaps it's just a problem of perception at this point. > > Thanks, > Eduard > > > > > > IMO is not one way or the other (and I don't agree with the duplication > > > argument). One way of creating entries (the Add menu way) is more > > generic, > > > while the other way (contextual form placement on the > Homepages/Indexes) > > is > > > specific to the entity type. > > > > > > > I don't mind having more that one button for an action in specific cases. > > But I don't think the "Create wiki" action is one of those cases. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Guillaume > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Caty > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 2:16 PM, Eduard Moraru <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 1:31 PM, Guillaume Lerouge < > > [email protected]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:03 PM, Eduard Moraru < > > [email protected]> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Guillaume, > > > > > > > > > > > > I have started a new discussion [1] on the topic of the new > > location > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > > Add menu in Flamingo which is, IMO, the real problem here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll answer on this thread. > > > > > > > > > > However, I stand by my point that creating a wiki or a space are > > > > different > > > > > actions compared from adding a new page and as thus should be > treated > > > > > differently. > > > > > > > > > > Regarding your actual proposal, I`d be inclined to -1 it, as IMO it > > > makes > > > > > > basic CRUD operations on the wiki model harder to perform (i.e. > > > harder > > > > to > > > > > > find), and what we`d like to do is help people create content and > > > > > > structure, not the other way around. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree with the logic but I'm not sure I'm 100% in line with the > > > > > conclusion. As you said, the goal is to help users create and > > structure > > > > > their content. > > > > > > > > > > Right now, when looking at existing installs, I often see cases > where > > > > users > > > > > created several spaces with similar names (which doesn't really > help > > > > > structure information). This is mainly because they didn't know > that > > a > > > > > space with a similar name already existed. Similarly, you wouldn't > > want > > > > > someone to create a "Communication" wiki if the > > > "MarketingCommunication" > > > > > wiki already exists. > > > > > > > > > > > > > What I read from your example above is that we can improve the create > > > > page/space/wiki UIs to have a section that does a kind of suggest to > > the > > > > user based on the name of the new entry he wants to create. We could > > have > > > > something like "The pages/spaces/wikis/etc. above already exist. Are > > you > > > > sure you want to create a new <userEnteredEntityName> > > > page/space/wiki/etc. > > > > instead of using one of the above?" > > > > > > > > We could go as far as to force the user to check a checkbox before > the > > > > "Create" button becomes enabled/clickable. This could either be a > > > > configuration option, based on the desire/intent/wishes of the admin > of > > > > that wiki/space. > > > > > > > > With a bit of effort, this could be done consistently for the entire > > > > "/create/" action and its plugged-in template providers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is why I'm proposing to place "Create" buttons in context. I > see > > > at > > > > > least 3 places where this could be useful: > > > > > > > > > > - "Create wiki" button on http:// > > > <server>/xwiki/bin/view/WikiManager/ > > > > > - "Create space" button on hypothetical > > > > > http://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/Main/SpacesIndex > > > > > (similar to what we already have on the Dashboard) > > > > > - "Create user" button on http://<server> > > > > > /xwiki/bin/view/Main/UserDirectory > > > > > > > > > > So from my point of view, by putting those buttons on those pages > > they > > > > > would actually be easier to find and understand for end-users. > > > > > > > > > > > > > This will not solve anything if the user is already too lazy to > search > > > for > > > > existing entries before creating one. The one he wishes to create > might > > > be > > > > on the second page of the livetable and the lazy user will just go > > ahead > > > > and create the similar entry. > > > > > > > > For this to be relatively effective in reducing duplication, we would > > > have > > > > to implement something on the lines of what I have described above > with > > > the > > > > "reuse sugestion". > > > > > > > > I`m not particularly against this approach (of adding create options > in > > > the > > > > list), since we were already doing this at some point and in some > > places, > > > > but I`m still -1 for scattering the create logic in various locations > > > > instead of using the centralized "Add" menu. If we don`t, we will > have > > > > 99999 pages all inside the Main space and that's it. How`s that for a > > > wiki > > > > gardening nightmare? :) > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Eduard > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > Guillaume > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Eduard > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- > > > > > > [1] http://xwiki.markmail.org/thread/jqbcj4p4ryc56sms > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:39 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < > > > > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We improved the things a bit by implementing > > > > > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-10928 > > > > > > > Now users can more rapidly create pages by using the implicit > > value > > > > of > > > > > > > 'Add'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Having all the option (Create Wiki, Create Space, Create Page) > in > > > the > > > > > > menu > > > > > > > is important IMO since you can create spaces (and wikis) from > > > > anywhere > > > > > in > > > > > > > the wiki. You don't need to be in a certain location to do this > > > > action. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree about having a Space Index of some sort and have a > > > consistent > > > > > way > > > > > > > of localizing/navigating Wikis/Spaces/Pages. Something similar > to > > > > this > > > > > > idea > > > > > > > was the Explorer proposal > > > > > > > > http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/ExplorerApp > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another related issue to this subject is > > > > > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-9440, but again I think > > > > XWIKI-10928 > > > > > > > <http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-10928> improved the > problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > Caty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:04 PM, Guillaume Lerouge < > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Devs, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm currently testing XE 6.2, it's a great release, I love > the > > > new > > > > > > look a > > > > > > > > lot - well done guys! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a quick remark that is related to the new location of > > the > > > > > > "Create" > > > > > > > > button. I think we should move the "create wiki" and "create > > > space" > > > > > > > options > > > > > > > > from where they are located now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The "Create wiki" button could be moved under the list of > wikis > > > on > > > > > this > > > > > > > > page: http://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/WikiManager/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We would probably need a similar "space index" page with the > > > > "Create > > > > > > > space" > > > > > > > > button there, a bit like what we have on the dashboard now: > > > http:// > > > > > > > > <server>/xwiki/bin/view/Dashboard/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The objective being that when doing those create actions, > they > > > > would > > > > > be > > > > > > > > done with the context of the wikis / spaces that already > exist. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is also a bit confusing for users is that since > creating a > > > new > > > > > > wiki > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > much much bigger and less frequent than creating a new page, > > the > > > > > action > > > > > > > > should not be available from every single page. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This issue has become much more salient than before to me > > because > > > > of > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > new location of the "Create" button. What's your opinion > about > > > > this? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Guillaume > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > devs mailing list > > > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > devs mailing list > > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > devs mailing list > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > devs mailing list > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > devs mailing list > > > > [email protected] > > > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > devs mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > devs mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > > > _______________________________________________ > devs mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > -- Denis Gervalle SOFTEC sa - CEO _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
