Hi Caty, On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 3:14 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < [email protected]> wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 4:01 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Hi Caty, > > > > On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > So I think is a good idea to provide the ability to create > > > wikis/spaces/page on their Indexes pages. In the case of Wiki Manager > > this > > > was removed in http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-9490 but if we > re-add > > it > > > we could standardize the creation of entities in their context (just > like > > > we do it on ColorThemes WebHome or on on Blog.WebHome). > > > > > > > Exactly :-) I'm +1 for this. > > > > > > > But even if we make this improvement, I still would want to have the > > > ability to create wikis/spaces/pages in the Add menu. > > > > > > > As I've said before, I don't agree with this. Though I might be ok to > keep > > the "Add space" action in there, with the improvements suggested by Edy, > I > > strongly believe that the "Create new wiki" feature shouldn't be there. > > It's an infrequent action with strong consequences. It should be > available > > as a tool from the main wiki, but definitely not from every page. Again, > > how often does any user create a new wiki? Even for a large organization, > > it will be mostly admins, and it will happen maybe a couple times a week > > after XWiki is launched internally. > > > > So in the end we have an action that is performed by *very few people, a > > handful of times*, and we put it on *every single page in the main wiki > and > > all sub-wikis*. I'm afraid that keeping all 3 actions in the same button > is > > consistency for consistency's sake, but it just doesn't match XWiki > users' > > behavior, nor their expectations. > > > > Besides consistency, what is the rationale for having all 3 actions in > one > > place? How do you back up your reasoning with actual user behavior? In > your > > personal experience, how often do you use the "create wiki" button in its > > current location? > > > > > With this logic, why do we have the 'Edit Class' in the same 'Edit' menu? > We should be able to edit the Class just from the page that lists the > existing classes. > I'm not sure how you're coming to this conclusion. I never suggested moving an action that is related to a given page away from that page. If class "a" is stored in page "A", I don't see why the "Edit class a" button should be anywhere but on page "A". Theoretically, if XClasses were not a specific concept in XWiki we wouldn't need the multi-select "Edit" button (a single "Edit" button would automatically trigger class edition on a XWiki page holding a XClass definition), but that's another debate entirely. However, I don't see how creating the wiki "SomeWiki" would be related to page "A", which is why I'm suggesting moving the button some place else. > The logic is that I want to be able to perform RAPIDLY an action, without > needing to go on a particular page. > Wikis/Space/Pages are BASIC entities in XWiki, is not something optional or > rarely used. > How often do you need to RAPIDLY create a new wiki, an action which takes routinely takes several minutes to complete? Thanks, Guillaume > Thanks, > Caty > > > IMO is not one way or the other (and I don't agree with the duplication > > > argument). One way of creating entries (the Add menu way) is more > > generic, > > > while the other way (contextual form placement on the > Homepages/Indexes) > > is > > > specific to the entity type. > > > > > > > I don't mind having more that one button for an action in specific cases. > > But I don't think the "Create wiki" action is one of those cases. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Guillaume > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Caty > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 2:16 PM, Eduard Moraru <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 1:31 PM, Guillaume Lerouge < > > [email protected]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:03 PM, Eduard Moraru < > > [email protected]> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Guillaume, > > > > > > > > > > > > I have started a new discussion [1] on the topic of the new > > location > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > > Add menu in Flamingo which is, IMO, the real problem here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll answer on this thread. > > > > > > > > > > However, I stand by my point that creating a wiki or a space are > > > > different > > > > > actions compared from adding a new page and as thus should be > treated > > > > > differently. > > > > > > > > > > Regarding your actual proposal, I`d be inclined to -1 it, as IMO it > > > makes > > > > > > basic CRUD operations on the wiki model harder to perform (i.e. > > > harder > > > > to > > > > > > find), and what we`d like to do is help people create content and > > > > > > structure, not the other way around. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree with the logic but I'm not sure I'm 100% in line with the > > > > > conclusion. As you said, the goal is to help users create and > > structure > > > > > their content. > > > > > > > > > > Right now, when looking at existing installs, I often see cases > where > > > > users > > > > > created several spaces with similar names (which doesn't really > help > > > > > structure information). This is mainly because they didn't know > that > > a > > > > > space with a similar name already existed. Similarly, you wouldn't > > want > > > > > someone to create a "Communication" wiki if the > > > "MarketingCommunication" > > > > > wiki already exists. > > > > > > > > > > > > > What I read from your example above is that we can improve the create > > > > page/space/wiki UIs to have a section that does a kind of suggest to > > the > > > > user based on the name of the new entry he wants to create. We could > > have > > > > something like "The pages/spaces/wikis/etc. above already exist. Are > > you > > > > sure you want to create a new <userEnteredEntityName> > > > page/space/wiki/etc. > > > > instead of using one of the above?" > > > > > > > > We could go as far as to force the user to check a checkbox before > the > > > > "Create" button becomes enabled/clickable. This could either be a > > > > configuration option, based on the desire/intent/wishes of the admin > of > > > > that wiki/space. > > > > > > > > With a bit of effort, this could be done consistently for the entire > > > > "/create/" action and its plugged-in template providers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is why I'm proposing to place "Create" buttons in context. I > see > > > at > > > > > least 3 places where this could be useful: > > > > > > > > > > - "Create wiki" button on http:// > > > <server>/xwiki/bin/view/WikiManager/ > > > > > - "Create space" button on hypothetical > > > > > http://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/Main/SpacesIndex > > > > > (similar to what we already have on the Dashboard) > > > > > - "Create user" button on http://<server> > > > > > /xwiki/bin/view/Main/UserDirectory > > > > > > > > > > So from my point of view, by putting those buttons on those pages > > they > > > > > would actually be easier to find and understand for end-users. > > > > > > > > > > > > > This will not solve anything if the user is already too lazy to > search > > > for > > > > existing entries before creating one. The one he wishes to create > might > > > be > > > > on the second page of the livetable and the lazy user will just go > > ahead > > > > and create the similar entry. > > > > > > > > For this to be relatively effective in reducing duplication, we would > > > have > > > > to implement something on the lines of what I have described above > with > > > the > > > > "reuse sugestion". > > > > > > > > I`m not particularly against this approach (of adding create options > in > > > the > > > > list), since we were already doing this at some point and in some > > places, > > > > but I`m still -1 for scattering the create logic in various locations > > > > instead of using the centralized "Add" menu. If we don`t, we will > have > > > > 99999 pages all inside the Main space and that's it. How`s that for a > > > wiki > > > > gardening nightmare? :) > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Eduard > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > Guillaume > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Eduard > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- > > > > > > [1] http://xwiki.markmail.org/thread/jqbcj4p4ryc56sms > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:39 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < > > > > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We improved the things a bit by implementing > > > > > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-10928 > > > > > > > Now users can more rapidly create pages by using the implicit > > value > > > > of > > > > > > > 'Add'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Having all the option (Create Wiki, Create Space, Create Page) > in > > > the > > > > > > menu > > > > > > > is important IMO since you can create spaces (and wikis) from > > > > anywhere > > > > > in > > > > > > > the wiki. You don't need to be in a certain location to do this > > > > action. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree about having a Space Index of some sort and have a > > > consistent > > > > > way > > > > > > > of localizing/navigating Wikis/Spaces/Pages. Something similar > to > > > > this > > > > > > idea > > > > > > > was the Explorer proposal > > > > > > > > http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/ExplorerApp > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another related issue to this subject is > > > > > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-9440, but again I think > > > > XWIKI-10928 > > > > > > > <http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-10928> improved the > problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > Caty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:04 PM, Guillaume Lerouge < > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Devs, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm currently testing XE 6.2, it's a great release, I love > the > > > new > > > > > > look a > > > > > > > > lot - well done guys! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a quick remark that is related to the new location of > > the > > > > > > "Create" > > > > > > > > button. I think we should move the "create wiki" and "create > > > space" > > > > > > > options > > > > > > > > from where they are located now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The "Create wiki" button could be moved under the list of > wikis > > > on > > > > > this > > > > > > > > page: http://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/WikiManager/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We would probably need a similar "space index" page with the > > > > "Create > > > > > > > space" > > > > > > > > button there, a bit like what we have on the dashboard now: > > > http:// > > > > > > > > <server>/xwiki/bin/view/Dashboard/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The objective being that when doing those create actions, > they > > > > would > > > > > be > > > > > > > > done with the context of the wikis / spaces that already > exist. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is also a bit confusing for users is that since > creating a > > > new > > > > > > wiki > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > much much bigger and less frequent than creating a new page, > > the > > > > > action > > > > > > > > should not be available from every single page. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This issue has become much more salient than before to me > > because > > > > of > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > new location of the "Create" button. What's your opinion > about > > > > this? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Guillaume > _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
