> On 17 Oct 2016, at 14:32, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <vali...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 2:50 PM, Vincent Massol <vinc...@massol.net> wrote:
>>> On 17 Oct 2016, at 12:33, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <vali...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> Thanks for the detailed report.
>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 11:30 AM, Vincent Massol <vinc...@massol.net>
>> wrote:
>>>> Hi devs,
>>>> Over the weekend I asked my brother in law (who doesn’t anything about
>>>> XWiki) to test it and give me some feedback. He did this test with me
>> next
>>>> to him so I could observe and ask him what was going through his head.
>>>> I’m sending below a summary of the session. We now need to address each
>>>> point and see what we want to do to improve the situation.
>>>> The Setup
>>>> ========
>>>> * HSQLDB/Jetty already setup with an Admin user already logged in.
>>> It's because you had the credentials in the browser's cache. Otherwise we
>>> ask for them.
>> This was part of my setup for him. Not sure why you said “because”. There
>> was no question nor problem here :)
>>> * I had made the Admin user a simple user.
>>> XE-1580: Change the user type for the Admin user to 'simple'
>>> http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XE-1580
>> Again this was part of the setup I made so there was no problem about this.
>> However we do have a problem of having the first user be an admin user
>> (see the point about this in my report below), i.e. your first introduction
>> to XWiki is as an admin user, meaning you get to see more options (admin
>> page menu entry, global admin settings) which in this session caused
>> several problems fpr him.
>>> * I later realized that I had forgotten to remove my local cookie on my
>>>> computer and he didn’t have the Tour. Thus I don’t know if he’d have
>> read
>>>> it till the end of not.
>>>> * I asked him 2 things only:
>>>> ** Create some new pages
>>>> ** Modify the home page
>>>> The Feedback
>>>> ===========
>>>> * First thing he wanted to do was to switch the UI to French (he’s
>>>> French). He looked for his user profile, found it, and couldn’t find a
>> way
>>>> to change the language. Fail. I had to tell give him the hint that
>> language
>>>> was a global wiki-level setting and I had to do it for him. Other
>> feedback:
>>>> The French translation for the language settings is really not
>>>> user-friendly and needs to be changed, it’s currently “Localisation”,
>> which
>>>> is too technical.
>>> XWIKI-6402: Separate Interface language and page language settings.
>>> http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-6402
>> This one seems quite important for newcomers. We should fix XWIKI-6042
>> ofc. Another idea would be that, on the first run (ie when no admin user is
>> set up yet) we ask about the language(s) of the wiki in the DW.
> XWIKI-10115: Add the option to choose the language of a new wiki created
> with the Distribution Wizard http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-10115
> XWIKI-11431: Use the language set for the Main Wiki for newly created
> subwikis http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11431
>> Basically right now there needs to be an admin who set up the languages
>> for the wiki users, before simple users start using the wiki.
>>> * Then he said he spotted a bug. The home page had a title of “Home” in
>>>> French instead of “Accueil”.
>>>> * He looked around in the UI and at some point he clicked on Page
>>>> Administration on the home page. This opened a UI with a title of
>>>> "Administration : Main”. He asked: “what is Main?”. Indeed he was on the
>>>> home page that was entitled “Home” and suddenly he was shown “Main”
>> which
>>>> 1/ was in English and 2/ didn’t mean anything to him.
>>> We have several inconsistencies for the naming (Indexes, etc.). I agree
>>> they are confusing.
>>>> * Then he went on to create a new page and initially was looking for
>> that
>>>> in the drawer in the Wiki Administration UI… At some point, I had to
>> tell
>>>> him to stop and I created a simple user for him (that is not Admin so
>> that
>>>> he couldn’t do in the wiki administration - I should have started with
>> this
>>>> probably although we need to fix our issue that first time users are
>>>> admins). Once this was done he was able to quickly find the “+” to
>> create a
>>>> new page.
>>>> * However, he wanted to create a structure with a “Domain” folder and
>> some
>>>> pages inside that folder. He saw the Tree in the Navigation Panel and
>> saw
>>>> that it was hierarchical and thus he wanted to do the same and create
>> that
>>>> “Domain” folder first. So he cancelled the Create Page UI since this was
>>>> about creating a page and he wanted a folder. He then found the
>> “Children
>>>> Pages” entry in the “More” menu. Note that in French it’s badly
>> labelled as
>>>> “Enfant de XXX” which was weird to him (FTR it’s also invalid
>>>> grammatically, missing an “s” for plural) but he understood it was
>> related
>>>> to children page he suggested “Sous-pages” as a better translation). So
>> he
>>>> clicked on it and he saw a form displayed (actually it was the filter of
>>>> the LT UI). And he started typing “Domain” in the text input but nothing
>>>> happened and he was puzzled.
>>>> —> When you look at the children LT for a page not having children,
>> you’ll
>>>> see that we should improve the UI. It doesn’t even say that’s it’s empty
>>>> and that there are no children pages…
>>>> * At this point he was a bit stuck and couldn’t understand how to
>> create a
>>>> folder. I had to tell him that in XWiki you could created hierarchical
>>>> pages and that there’s no notion of folders (I didn’t want to explain
>> the
>>>> concept of Spaces especially since he hide this in the UI). He mentioned
>>>> that after 20 years of Microsoft practice, everyone understands the
>> concept
>>>> of folders and files and that it’s hard to understand that we only have
>>>> hierarchical pages. He suggest that we may want to have 2 “+” buttons
>> next
>>>> to each other (like “+” and “++” or some other visual with a tooltip of
>>>> “Créer page” and “Créer sous-page"). One to create sibling pages and
>>>> another one to create children pages). In his head, the default when you
>>>> create a page is to create a sibling page, not a sub-page.
>>>> * After this he was able to create his pages (note that he used
>>>> immediately the templates we provided for his test and selected the
>>>> Encyclopedia template).
>>>> * He noted that the icon for Rename/Move/Delete was weird and he didn’t
>>>> understand the relationship between the actions and the icon which is
>> the
>>>> one for settings (the cog). He suggested to use something different
>> like a
>>>> rubber (which incidentally I see that it’s missing from
>>>> http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/XWiki+Icon+Set and we
>>>> need to add it). FYI he was no longer Admin at this point so the “Page
>>>> Administration” entry wasn’t visible.
>>> Not sure about the rubber icon.
>>>> * When he edited his first page, he quickly told me that that the “Save”
>>>> buttons are way too hidden (they’re usually not even visible when you
>> edit
>>>> if you don’t scroll down). He was expecting them to see them at the top,
>>>> close to the page menus. He suggested that we should have a horizontal
>> bar
>>>> that stays always visible when you scroll down and that contains the
>> save
>>>> buttons.
>>> There are several problems with the bottom horizontal bar for
>>> responsiveness and display of panels in mobile mode.
>>>> * At this point he created a hierarchy of pages and then wanted to move
>>>> some page around to test this feature. However he could find the menu
>> entry
>>>> to do so. He could easily find the move, copy and delete entries but
>> that’s
>>>> not what he was looking for. The reason is that the French translation
>> is
>>>> “Renommer”. On English I see that we’ve now renamed it to
>>>> "core.menu.rename=Move / Rename”. But the French translation is still
>>>> “Renommer”. When I suggested to have “Renommer / Déplacer” to him he
>> said
>>>> that he’d simply call it “Déplacer” since for renaming a page he doesn’t
>>>> need to go to that screen and he can simply edit the page and change the
>>>> title. He said it’s fine to leave the ability to change the title on the
>>>> Move UI but that it was just a nice bonus and not the main goal of this
>>>> screen in his opinion.
>>>> * On the Rename UI screen, he started by clicking in the source
>>>> breadcrumb, and he was surprised that the browser navigated away. Later
>> on
>>>> he realized that the was a target section. At this point he commented
>> that
>>>> he expected to see the target first since that’s what he wanted to
>> change.
>>>> He also suggested that if would be simpler to use if the target
>> breadcrumb
>>>> was replaced by a Tree to choose the new location.
>>>> * When he tried to modify the home page he did it very easily and was
>> able
>>>> to put his own content. When I told him that some user find it
>> difficult to
>>>> understand that they could modify the home page he said that it’s not
>> the
>>>> first thing he’d have done.
>>>> * On the positive side, the navigation panel was really nice for him. He
>>>> kept using it all the time to navigate. Thus navigation wasn’t an issue
>> for
>>>> him.
>>>> That’s it. Hope we can use this to improve basic user experience. The
>>>> biggest item by far is to make users understand that there’s no folder
>> and
>>>> that there’s only hierarchical pages. I think I like his idea of the 2
>> add
>>>> buttons (create sibling page and create children page), or something
>>>> similar (I guess the Create UI itself could have a different UI to ask
>> the
>>>> user clearly if he/she wants to create a sibling or a children page).
>>> So I don't like this idea about the folders.
>> What idea? I don’t remember having mentioned any idea about having
>> folders. Caty it’s not an idea: it’s the way people approach hierarchy
>> nowadays because they’re used to filesystems.
>>> For me is like going backwards
>>> to the "Space/Page" separation we had before the Nested Pages.
>> I didn’t propose anything regarding reinstating spaces or folders so not
>> sure what you’re reacting against, could you be more explicit?
>> That said, the old way was much simpler to understand for users and was
>> causing less friction. They could create spaces and pages.
>> We lost that simplicity and I’m wondering if dropping spaces wasn’t a bad
>> idea (especially since we still have this at the model level).
>> In any case we need to discuss what are our options to make user
>> understands that we have only hierarchical pages and no concept of
>> “folders”. And having some text explanation is definitely not going to work
>> on this (he didn’t even start reading the text of the home page). Thus for
>> me this has to be explained by the UI somehow.
> IMO the tree already helps a lot in helping creating hierarchical
> structures. Maybe an improvement would be to allow to create pages inside
> the Tree structure.

That’s http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-12762 (it should be done generically 
by introducing a macro parameter). Then we could use that in the Navigation 
Panel tree too.

That’s a good idea that could have helped in my session over the weekend (if 
it’s visible enough). It may not be enough but I think it would help.


> Thanks,
> Caty
>>> Also the
>>> sibling/children separation is strange/'technical’.
>> The words are technical but the concepts are not because users are used to
>> folders. When you’re inside a folder you can create several files at the
>> same level (that’s siblings) and apparently that’s what he was expecting
>> when he clicked the “+” button (to create pages at the same level in the
>> current “folder”).
>> Thanks
>> -Vincent
>>> Thanks,
>>> Caty
>>>> Thanks
>>>> -Vincent
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