We fully support AD and it is efficient in many applications where energy options are limited. I challenge you on your statement "Anaerobic Digestions and the AD industry, which is currently undermined by artificially cheap fossil fuel production and use (not a political statement)". I believe it IS a political statement. Fossil fuel sits in the ground and is FREE as is. You cannot make free any cheaper. Who is the judge of what is wasteful energy use? I believe assuming energy use in the industrialized world is wasteful ,is political.
We put our first AD unit in place in 1963 as a way to lower the odor from one of our hog operations. It took almost 20 years for it to pay back just its initial construction costs, using the cost of the LP Gas (Propane) it replaced. Our accountant said it never actually paid back its true cost because of the cost to operate,and maintain the AD unit. Much less the cost to convert all of the buildings over to the lower grade gas. Based on this it was never cost effective or efficient. Our next AD units were used prefabricated fiber glass tanks at a different location. The payback was faster and the process design was different. I agree "AD is an incredible renewable energy source, but one that should teach us to value energy and inherently become champions of energy efficiency and conservation.". It would seem we differ in our definition of "energy efficiency and conservation" and several of the items listed below. artificially cheap fossil fuel ???? Fossil fuel sits in the ground and is free as is. How can free be artificially cheap? wasteful use of non-renewable energy???? How do you define wasteful? Using too large of a light bulb, when the person you compare them too has no electricity? opportunities for efficiency ????? Is energy efficiency relative to the circumstance in which it is used or is it universal? industrialized agricultural as the most efficient???? How would you define it? I can grow food in my back yard and it is almost free. exporting massive amounts of subsidized grains????The only subsidy our farm receives is for the cotton ground that is set out and not farmed. We receive no government money for the grain and hay we sell. subsidized grains....under cut the production of corn ???? I would like to see the evidence of a subsidized grain effecting the production of corn in a third world setting. Most third world farmers, only cost, is the seed. Rain is free and the grass is free, to feed there beasts of burden is free. They do not use energy. massive imbalance of energy use???? How can a subsistence farmer living off grid, that barley feeds himself, be fairly compared to a farmer living on the grid that can cultivate 100 to 200+++ acres per day? Brent ----- Original Message ----- From: Alexander Eaton To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 10:48 AM Subject: Re: [Digestion] Biogas conversation rates It is unclear to me how peak oil, and the ramifications it has to our industry, could be offensive to anyone or considered outside the scope oft his list. We are discussing Anaerobic Digestions and the AD industry, which is currently undermined by artificially cheap fossil fuel production and use (not a political statement). It is also hard for me to see how the juxtaposition of people in the developing world having suppressed energy needs with wasteful use of non-renewable energy in the industrialized world should be offensive, or even off topic. In fact, biogas would be a more feasible option in the industrialized world if its modest energy production were paired with a more modest energy use. This is not a political view, but a holistic view of how energy programs should be implemented. Those of us who work in renewable energy should always examine opportunities for efficiency as part of our projects to make the energy production more significant. The only political view I see here is referring to industrialized agricultural as the most efficient in the world (you do not mean energy in to food calories out as your measure of efficiency?). Or, that exporting massive amounts of subsidized grains has been some boon for the developing world. Many in Mexico would find this offensive since these exports have under cut the production of corn in the country where that grain was developed. That was a political statement, that many would disagree with. AD is an incredible renewable energy source, but one that should teach us to value energy and inherently become champions of energy efficiency and conservation. Obviously, that does not mean pulling the plug on key industries or agriculture, but as the original theme of this thread indicates, there is a massive imbalance of energy use int he world (also not a political statement) that could be partially improved by restrain and responsible energy use in the industrialized world...and then the application of AD for all! A On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 11:53 PM, Reuben Deumling <[email protected]> wrote: On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 10:28 PM, Randy Mott <[email protected]> wrote: If this list starts becoming a place to expound political theories about the world and energy, I will drop out. Peak Oil is a political theory? Hm. 30 countries that produce oil have already peaked, and ten more are close (out of a total of 54 countries)--I don't think this is debated by anyone--see http://www.theoildrum.com/node/5576 My general feeling is when a renewable energy person begins their presentation with global warming and political slides, that they are not really a professional in the business. I'm not sure who you have in mind, but I am not a renewable energy person. I'm a citizen who would like to learn about how we can all live well a decade or two or three hence--even more would be welcome. My interest in biogas stems from the fact that the other, more familiar, stuff isn't going to be around or affordable forever, and liquid or gaseous fuels have some key advantages in certain applications. We will be selling carbon credits like anyone seriously in the biogas business, but I don’t need this list to tell me that by doing so we are helping to save the world, etc. No need to worry. Our world will not be saved by carbon credits. I don't know who was suggesting that, but it certainly wasn't me. Reuben Deumling _______________________________________________ Digestion mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address [email protected] to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org for more information about digestion, see Beginner's Guide to Biogas http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/ and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Digestion mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address [email protected] to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org for more information about digestion, see Beginner's Guide to Biogas http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/ and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
_______________________________________________ Digestion mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address [email protected] to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org for more information about digestion, see Beginner's Guide to Biogas http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/ and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
