Dear Alexander, dear all, Even without subsidies on fossil fuel extraction and processing, you could argue that fossil fuels are artificially cheap as nobody pays for the full cost. The full cost would include all the externalities that are currently not paid for, for instance, pollution, political unrest, climate change, smog and all the related health costs.
Then, as suggested to take an holistic perspective, it is those people in the third world, who do not pollute, are stuck with the consequences of climate change to the greatest degree. That might even be the same people that have a hard time making a living in the third world because of our subsidies on certain crops. Hence, when taking a holistic perspective, considering externalities, there is a good case to assume that fossil fuels are artificially cheap. ________________________________ From: Alexander Eaton <[email protected]> To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion <[email protected]> Sent: Wed, January 19, 2011 6:39:28 PM Subject: Re: [Digestion] Biogas conversation rates Brent, I don't want to gang up on you, but the idea that fossil fuel is free is really a hard concept to grasp. The days of Texas crude bubbling out of the ground have been over for a long time. Maybe, once billions are spent on research, survey's, permits, drilling, extracting, ground pressurization, military action, security forces, refining, and dealing with the toxic byproducts, the oil it self is free. It is artificially, cheap because some of those costs are absorbed by tax payers, and therefore the companies commercializing the petroleum can sell it for less. These are simple truths of the industry that anyone in the petroleum industry could share with you. The records that Steve shared regarding subsides is dated, but you find that those numbers are far larger today, especially for fossil fuel. Just the tax breaks for the larges fossil fuel producers dwarfs any subsidies available for renewable energy (e.g. AD). "In the US, the current regime is propping up alternate energy with unsustainable subsidies, while at the same time, stopping the production of domestic fossil fuels." Sure, there is some support for renewable energy, but not a lot, and certainly not more than petroleum, nuclear, and other energy sources that will not provide sustainable, safe and clean energy production in the future. Many new technologies need help to get established. I have been conducting feasibility studies for the REAP program for AD projects in the US, and thankfully that support has been there to help some really good projects get off the ground. The idea is that volume and "lessons learned" will make the technology more competitive. Would you not have appreciated technical and financial support 20 years ago when your AD system was installed? If 50% of the system had been paid for and you had realized additional savings by having strong R&D behind you, you systems would have made your farm more economically successful. Are we not on the same page here? Another thing that would make clean technology more competitive would be fossil fuel not receiving such cost support. It is also not a fair characterization of the "regime" to say they have been against domestic fuels, as they have proposed offshore drilling for the first time in many locations and have not posed additional regulations in other areas. We are not saying domestic fossil fuel sources should not be used, but rather as Steve said, there should be triage. Agriculture and vital services should have priority, instead of, say, the high school kid that circles my block 15 times a day in his parents Escalade, some very inefficient (efficient here meaning use of energy per cubic foot and the ability to retain heat) housing stock, and nearly 25% of household energy use powering phantom loads that are not actually being used. Without much effort we could demonstrate many examples of inefficient energy use, that should not offend you. Obesity in the US is an example of wasteful energy use as well, given that food is energy. When I speak about efficiency, I am referring to the amount of energy that goes into a process as compared to the desired outcome, work, or value you are trying to get from the process. I would also encourage you to do some reading about food exports to the developing world, and the damage it has done to local production. In short: grains enter the market at prices lower than local farmers can produce the same grains for. This makes there farms less profitable, and therefore they are unable to invest further in their production. Sustained periods of this put some farmers out of business. With less local farmers, the market become more dependent on the imported grains, and so on. In this debate, I would encourage you to not characterize all third world farmers as subsistence, and there is a strong small-farm commercial industry that is very important to the economies of these countries. I hope this has addressed the basis behind "artificially cheap fossil fuel production", and why the disparity between industrial and developing world contexts can lead to unhealthy imbalances (i.e. illegal immigration). The main point here is that efficiency should be everyone's friend, and politically, it is a very conservative (right) concept. A Please notice the lack of multiple ?? or !!. Lets talk, not "yell". On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 1:57 PM, bingham <[email protected]> wrote: Ruben, >???? was not stuck!!! >It seems you are avoiding answering the question by asking a question, a >rouse >used by those who do not like the answer ?? >It also seems you have missed the central claim? Or you are using a tactic of >smoke a mirrors to obfuscate the primes of the thread to which I responded, >i.e.. "Anaerobic Digestions and the AD industry, which is currently >undermined >by artificially cheap fossil fuel production and use (not a political >statement)". >I will help you back to the point: "artificially cheap fossil fuel >production". >How is it "artificially cheap"????AD has proven it has a place in the overall >energy system. It is not now practical in all applications. > >B >----- Original Message ----- >>From: Reuben Deumling >>To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion >>Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 1:09 PM >>Subject: Re: [Digestion] Biogas conversation rates >> >> >>Brent, >> >>your question-mark key is stuck. >> >>But back to your central claim, if fossil fuels are free-as-is I'm not >>sure >>why you are worrying about a payback on your AD system. Something doesn't >>compute. >> >> >> >>On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 12:04 PM, bingham <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>Fossil fuel sits in the ground and is FREE as is. You cannot make free >>any >>cheaper. >>> ________________________________ >>_______________________________________________ >>Digestion mailing list >> >>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address >>[email protected] >> >>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page >>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org >> >> >>for more information about digestion, see >>Beginner's Guide to Biogas >>http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/ >>and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/ >> >> >_______________________________________________ >Digestion mailing list > >to Send a Message to the list, use the email address >[email protected] > >to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page >http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org > > >for more information about digestion, see >Beginner's Guide to Biogas >http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/ >and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/ > > > -- Alexander Eaton Sistema Biobolsa IRRI-Mexico RedBioLAC Mex cel: (55) 11522786 US cel: 970 275 4505 [email protected] [email protected] sistemabiobolsa.com www.irrimexico.org www.redbiolac.org
_______________________________________________ Digestion mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address [email protected] to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org for more information about digestion, see Beginner's Guide to Biogas http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/ and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
