Alexander,
If we were talking about bread instead of oil and I deducted the cost of the
flour and the gas to cook it, from my taxes would that mean
my bread is subsidized? We have been converting contaminated grain and feed
into ETOH alcohol since the early 70's. It costs more in
natural gas to distill than it is worth. The US government pays us 45 cents
per gallon as an actual subsidy over and above the real tax deductible
costs. The government then turns around and charges 60 cents per gallon on
imported ETOH from Brazil. 40+ percent of the corn in the us will
be diverted to ETOH production this year. In Brazil they use sugar cane which
is much less expensive to produce and is not much of the food chain.
Perhaps it would be good if you would list the actual "tax breaks" you claim
they receive i.e."some of those costs are absorbed by tax payers". In this way
we know you are not talking about detectable expenses. The 45 cents we get for
our alcohol is a real hand out.
You mentioned "some support for renewable energy, but "not a lot" what to you
is a lot. Did you hear about the ETOH subsidy put into the budget during the
lame duck congress? In 2009 the 45 cents was paid on and average of 700,000
barrels per day, most of which was
paid to ADM. If you do the math the "not a lot" comes to about $15.75 million
per day. Last year it came to over $7 billion, "not a lot"???
I think you need to define the difference between a subsidy and a cost of
production.
"If 50% of the system had been paid for" it would have meant 50% was a subsidy.
All that means is it was not feasible and did not stand
on its own merits, which gets to my point.
Please list a current credible source for your statement "fossil fuel not
receiving such cost support".
With regard to"they have proposed offshore drilling for the first time". While
they talk about more drilling, the fact is the current regime has only issued 3
new drilling permits and they are conditional. Hundreds of existing permits
were put on hold, and hundreds of drilling rigs that were already operating
remain shut down.
The head of the current regime stated flatly he would bankrupt coal companies.
As a direct result the new coal fired Power Plant that was under construction
in Bowie AZ has been stopped. No new Plants have been permitted, or under
construction under the new administration.
"I would also encourage you to do some reading about food exports to the
developing world". I have looked into it and that is to my point of efficient
food production. We produce crops now at a cost that is lower than we did in
the 1960"s and do it with out subsidies. During that same time period many of
our costs have gone up 800%++. I do not see how "local farmers" not being
competitive is relevant to our discussion. In our area only 20% of the farmers
that were in production in the 60's steal farm. Back then, we farmed dozens of
small fields with small inefficient tractors and hundreds of laborers. We now
have combined the fields, use almost no labor and have eliminated the small
inefficient tractors. There is an economy of scale that small farms cannot
achieve and this is the primary reason for lower grain costs not subsidies. If
you check the prices US farmers were paid over the last 3 decades, you will see
those prices have not gone up, nearly as much.
Sorry but not even close, "addressed the basis behind "artificially cheap
fossil fuel production". Your primes is based on out dated information and
according to my sources your source was not credible when it was written.
Perhaps you can find a government source to support there numbers in as much as
the government is supposedly making the payments.
Finally to this: "Please notice the lack of multiple ?? or !!. Lets talk, not
"yell". When I yell or wish to express anger in an email I due so this way
&%$#@*%
When I use ???? or !!!! it is my way to express my skepticism and or
incredulity, not volume or anger.
Brent
----- Original Message -----
From: Alexander Eaton
To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 2:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Digestion] Biogas conversation rates
Brent, I don't want to gang up on you, but the idea that fossil fuel is free
is really a hard concept to grasp. The days of Texas crude bubbling out of the
ground have been over for a long time. Maybe, once billions are spent on
research, survey's, permits, drilling, extracting, ground pressurization,
military action, security forces, refining, and dealing with the toxic
byproducts, the oil it self is free. It is artificially, cheap because some of
those costs are absorbed by tax payers, and therefore the companies
commercializing the petroleum can sell it for less. These are simple truths of
the industry that anyone in the petroleum industry could share with you. The
records that Steve shared regarding subsides is dated, but you find that those
numbers are far larger today, especially for fossil fuel. Just the tax breaks
for the larges fossil fuel producers dwarfs any subsidies available for
renewable energy (e.g. AD).
"In the US, the current regime is propping up alternate energy with
unsustainable subsidies, while at the same time, stopping the production of
domestic fossil fuels."
Sure, there is some support for renewable energy, but not a lot, and
certainly not more than petroleum, nuclear, and other energy sources that will
not provide sustainable, safe and clean energy production in the future. Many
new technologies need help to get established. I have been conducting
feasibility studies for the REAP program for AD projects in the US, and
thankfully that support has been there to help some really good projects get
off the ground. The idea is that volume and "lessons learned" will make the
technology more competitive. Would you not have appreciated technical and
financial support 20 years ago when your AD system was installed? If 50% of
the system had been paid for and you had realized additional savings by having
strong R&D behind you, you systems would have made your farm more economically
successful. Are we not on the same page here?
Another thing that would make clean technology more competitive would be
fossil fuel not receiving such cost support. It is also not a fair
characterization of the "regime" to say they have been against domestic fuels,
as they have proposed offshore drilling for the first time in many locations
and have not posed additional regulations in other areas.
We are not saying domestic fossil fuel sources should not be used, but rather
as Steve said, there should be triage. Agriculture and vital services should
have priority, instead of, say, the high school kid that circles my block 15
times a day in his parents Escalade, some very inefficient (efficient here
meaning use of energy per cubic foot and the ability to retain heat) housing
stock, and nearly 25% of household energy use powering phantom loads that are
not actually being used. Without much effort we could demonstrate many
examples of inefficient energy use, that should not offend you. Obesity in the
US is an example of wasteful energy use as well, given that food is energy.
When I speak about efficiency, I am referring to the amount of energy that goes
into a process as compared to the desired outcome, work, or value you are
trying to get from the process.
I would also encourage you to do some reading about food exports to the
developing world, and the damage it has done to local production. In short:
grains enter the market at prices lower than local farmers can produce the same
grains for. This makes there farms less profitable, and therefore they are
unable to invest further in their production. Sustained periods of this put
some farmers out of business. With less local farmers, the market become more
dependent on the imported grains, and so on. In this debate, I would encourage
you to not characterize all third world farmers as subsistence, and there is a
strong small-farm commercial industry that is very important to the economies
of these countries.
I hope this has addressed the basis behind "artificially cheap fossil fuel
production", and why the disparity between industrial and developing world
contexts can lead to unhealthy imbalances (i.e. illegal immigration). The
main point here is that efficiency should be everyone's friend, and
politically, it is a very conservative (right) concept.
A
Please notice the lack of multiple ?? or !!. Lets talk, not "yell".
On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 1:57 PM, bingham <[email protected]> wrote:
Ruben,
???? was not stuck!!!
It seems you are avoiding answering the question by asking a question, a
rouse used by those who do not like the answer ??
It also seems you have missed the central claim? Or you are using a tactic
of smoke a mirrors to obfuscate the primes of the thread to which I responded,
i.e.. "Anaerobic Digestions and the AD industry, which is currently
undermined by artificially cheap fossil fuel production and use (not a
political statement)".
I will help you back to the point: "artificially cheap fossil fuel
production". How is it "artificially cheap"????
AD has proven it has a place in the overall energy system. It is not now
practical in all applications.
B
----- Original Message -----
From: Reuben Deumling
To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 1:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Digestion] Biogas conversation rates
Brent,
your question-mark key is stuck.
But back to your central claim, if fossil fuels are free-as-is I'm not
sure why you are worrying about a payback on your AD system. Something doesn't
compute.
On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 12:04 PM, bingham <[email protected]> wrote:
Fossil fuel sits in the ground and is FREE as is. You cannot make free
any cheaper.
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and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
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for more information about digestion, see
Beginner's Guide to Biogas
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and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
--
Alexander Eaton
Sistema Biobolsa
IRRI-Mexico
RedBioLAC
Mex cel: (55) 11522786
US cel: 970 275 4505
[email protected]
[email protected]
sistemabiobolsa.com
www.irrimexico.org
www.redbiolac.org
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to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
[email protected]
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
for more information about digestion, see
Beginner's Guide to Biogas
http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
_______________________________________________
Digestion mailing list
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
[email protected]
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
for more information about digestion, see
Beginner's Guide to Biogas
http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
