On Monday, 16 October 2017 at 08:56:21 UTC, Rion wrote:
When you invest this time into a language, you have
expectations. A person expects for a language this old, that
every puzzle fits together without issue.
I can't say that your process for forming expectations is wrong,
but it's evidently not turned out to be a good guide to reality.
It could be that reality should conform itself to your view of
what it should be, but it might also be that D is a thing in
itself that develops according to its own intrinsic pattern that
is different from the one with which some people are most
familiar with today. And if that's right, one can't evaluate it
according to heuristics that fit other languages - one needs to
think about what is the problem one faces, and from an enterprise
value perspective how and where might D be useful. And if one
isn't in a position where one can't think about it from an
enterprise value perspective, it's going to be hard to use D at
work.
Call me spoiled if you want but quick gratification it is not.
Yes - that's the whole point - it's certainly not a language
community that as things stand today fits someone expecting quick
gratification, especially on Windows. I don't see how it becomes
one very soon. Expecting it to become what it is not might lead
to disappointment. For some people, perhaps that's enough for
them to look elsewhere - it very much depends on your discount
rate, on your patience, how quickly you pick up technical things,
and on the sorts of problems you face.
Debates about languages are often really debates about values.
And although one may explore differences in values in a rational
way, that's really not something one is easily going to persuade
anyone else of. Hey Javascript guys why not slow down a bit,
focus on code quality, security, rigour, error reporting and so
on. It's not going to happen.
https://www.slideshare.net/bcantrill/platform-as-reflection-of-values-joyent-nodejs-and-beyond
https://vimeo.com/230142234
The time wasted on dealing with issue on D, is time you can
have spend in a different language actually writing
code/testing. Its a barrier to the language its own success
when its not as user friendly as the other languages.
It's not the time spent sorting out build systems or writing code
that is the truly expensive bit... In fact there are days when I
wonder about imposing a tax on lines of code to make people write
less of it.
It might not be a positive factor, but empirically it's certainly
not an overwhelming impediment to the continued growth of the
language, because adoption is growing.
If a person needs to do a action in Windows and it takes him 5
mouse clicks. But hey, under Linux you can do it with one
command line arg, ... the Linux approach sound more easy right?
Yes, to me I find it so - even Microsoft at a WinOps talk
recently said that in the end the command-line is better for some
things because a GUI hides things from you (I paraphrase). Of
course for some people it's easier to use a mouse. But the
command-line is certainly more powerful and if you're managing or
deploying to even as few as tens or more of machines, it may
often be the only way.
Until you add the time needed to learn the command and assuming
there are no issues.
You only need to learn once. And it's my impression classic
command line tools change much less often than GUI app interfaces.
What is more rewarding or punishing?
It very much depends on what sort of thing is more your cup of
tea. People are evidently quite different in their tastes, and
it's a good thing too. It's just not going to be very gratifying
to go to coffee drinkers and ask why they don't appreciate the
virtues of Earl Grey. Unless you enjoy the sort of reaction
you'll get.
Windows does not get in the way.
I must beg to differ.
MS puts a massive amount of time and money in there testing.
And it shows in there platform.
So if you prefer to use their platform, there is no point
expecting D to reach a similar standard in the sheer glossiness
of the appearance of tools, because time and money in the D
community is spent in different ways because people using D have
different problems and therefore different values. Personally I
can't stand Visual Studio, but then again I don't write much for
Windows.
Its the same reason why Linux as a desktop OS will never work
out. Too much puzzle pieces that do not fit, too much assumed
that people need ( and have the time ) to learn the complicated
way. A lack of inter-testing beyond just the basic compile
tests ( i mean really usage ).
Fair enough. I gather UNIX family has been quite successful on
the desktop - the only real competitor to Windows, no? And some
say easier to use. And GNU and UNIX derivatives dominate the
mobile markets.
Its easy to see the same attitude in D as a community project.
There are GREAT pieces being written but everybody is working
more as a solo developer, with no clear guideline. That is the
big difference between a language like D and corporate backed
languages.
I don't think it's true that 'everybody' is working as a solo
developer. There are some decent size teams working in D. But
most of them have little to no forum presence because when you're
a decent size team you have bills to pay and people to manage and
you can't spend much time writing messages on forums.
I can easily think of a dozen extensions to D, that need to be
part of the standard library or extended library of D, like
DCompute, mir-algorithm, ...
Yes, well we sponsor mir-algorithm, and would like to sponsor
dcompute too, but I haven't had any time. And I think it would
be by far premature for them to be in Phobos, because the
consequence of raising the bar for quality in Phobos has been
that it stifles the growth of new things. Mir itself was
originally in Phobos experimental and Ilya asked for it to be
withdrawn, for that very reason.
It's good the bar has been raised for Phobos too.
It just might be an idea to create an intermediate layer of high
quality projects with a degree of community support and where you
know they are likely to basically work. That's I think why D
Community Hub was created, and I guess it will probably continue
to grow from here:
https://github.com/dlang-community
Why? Because its again lose projects that you as a end consumer
need to discover. Most of the time written and maintained by
one person. Too much here is so single person focused, that its
hard to see people continue the work if that person has no more
time.
Too much here is single issue focused and it shows in the
developers there background, what results in the testing of
platforms, the interaction etc.
There's an old joke about hiring.
===
One day while walking downtown, a Human Resources woman was hit
by a bus and was tragically killed. Her soul arrived up in heaven
where she was met at the Pearly Gates by St. Peter himself.
“Welcome to Heaven,” said St. Peter. “Before you get settled in
though, it seems we have a problem. You see, strangely enough,
we’ve never once had an HR manager make it this far and we’re
really not sure what to do with you.”
“No problem, just let me in,” said the woman.
“Well, I’d like to, but I have higher orders. What we’re going to
do is let you have a day in Hell and a day in Heaven and then you
can choose whichever one you want to spend an eternity in,” the
Saint replied.
“Actually, I think I’ve made up my mind… I prefer to stay in
Heaven.”
“Sorry, we have our rules…”
And with that St. Peter put the HR manager in an elevator and it
went down-down-down to Hell. The doors opened and the HR manager
found herself stepping out onto the putting green of a beautiful
golf course. In the distance was a country club and standing in
front of her were all her friends – fellow HR professionals that
she had worked with. They were all dressed in evening gowns and
cheering for her. They ran up and kissed her on both cheeks and
they talked about old times. They played an excellent round of
golf and at night went to the country club where she enjoyed an
excellent steak and lobster dinner. She met the Devil who was
actually a really nice guy (kinda cute) and she had a great time
telling jokes and dancing. The HR manager was having such a good
time that before she knew it, it was time to leave. Everybody
shook her hand and waved goodbye as she got on the elevator. The
elevator went up-up-up and opened back up at the Pearly Gates
where St. Peter was waiting for her.
“Now it’s time to spend a day in Heaven” he said. So the HR
manager spent the next 24 hours lounging around on the clouds and
playing the harp and singing. She had a great time and before she
knew it, her 24 hours were up and St. Peter came and got her.
“So, you’ve spent a day in Hell and you’ve spent a day in Heaven.
Now you must choose your eternity,” he said.
===
The HR manager paused for a second and then replied, “Well, I
never thought I’d say this. I mean, Heaven has been really great
and all, but I think I had a better time in Hell.”
So, St. Peter escorted her to the elevator and again the HR
manager went down-down-down back to Hell.
When the doors of the elevator opened she found herself standing
in a desolate wasteland covered in garbage and filth. She saw her
friends were dressed in rags and were picking up garbage and
putting it in sacks for the evening meal. The Devil came up to
her and put his arm around her and laughed at her.
“I don’t understand,” stammered the HR manager. “Yesterday I was
here and there was a golf course and a country club and we ate
lobster and we danced and had a great time. Now all there is a
wasteland of garbage and all my friends look miserable.”
The Devil looked at her and grinned: “That’s because yesterday we
were recruiting you… but today you’re staff.”
http://www.sun-gazing.com/explains-recruitment-perfectly-true-hurts/#OFZ8GL7Y7jCloAmf.99
===
Maybe i explain this badly, but D seems has a lot of issues
that people here are not aware off because they are already in
the D mindset. And its those issues that show up the most, when
one first tries this language.
And it's the opposite of the recruiting joke - with D the pain is
upfront - I'd by far rather it were that way, because if you only
discover critical things after you have written a lot of code,
that's by far more expensive.
I don't think people here are oblivious. Nothing you have said
would have come us a surprise to anyone who has been around a
while, and it isn't something nobody has said before.
But one can pick from the choices available to one, or the new
ones one can imagine.
Things change when somebody decides to make them change, and
there's nothing more powerful than writing code - at least a
proof of concept - to inspire others to follow.
Outside of that, pointing out the obvious won't change anything.
And if one won't write code (or failing that, donate money or
time or something) then one shouldn't expect the world to move to
accommodate one's wishes. And it's in the context where the
values of the D community are different from the values of some
other languages - that's a good thing, because diversity of the
sort that really matters - cultural, intellectual, cognitive -
does make the world a richer place.
Laeeth.
