Heh.. Luddite need not be a pejorative -- the way it's generally used is ARRGHH FIRE BAD TECHNOLOGY BAD, a fear or loathing of technology but their story a bit more nuanced than that (and yet still counter-revolutionary). Critical Art Ensemble's 'Slacker Luddites' is worth a look if you're interested: http://www.critical-art.net/books/ecd/ecd4.pdf
Agree there's definitely room for innovation around vocational certifications - ideally in a way that changes the incentives towards open technology. I wonder how many millions of tax dollars used for job retraining have been spent certifying people in proprietary ecosystems (MS certs &such at community colleges). I haven't thought much about certification specifically but Mozilla's open badges ( https://wiki.mozilla.org/Badges) seems like a key component so long as the system doesn't get too polluted by badgemills (like a parallel to the rising trend of predatory open access ~"journals" http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/04/09/the-dark-side-of-open-access-journals/ ) Big fan of Warren in general and this bill in particular. Happy to participate if you think it's helpful to the conversation. -a On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 10:45 PM, Matt L <[email protected]> wrote: > "The struggle continues", Love it! > > Thank you very much for your feedback sir. I appreciate it, especially > from an educator's POV. I never intended to leave any implication that I > believed you were somehow a "luddite" (yes, I had to look it up ;) ), quite > the contrary, just the mere fact that we are having this discussion on this > mailing list implies the opposite. > > I think it's great that your teaching FLOSS and html5/css3 technologies. I > work w/ many of these tools everyday. Eclipse, bluefish, local LAMP env, > etc... > > "I think OCW is particularly valuable in this context (alongside other > external tutorials, various projects' irc channels, forums and youtube > howtos) as supplement to class material." I believe these tools are > invaluable to even classroom participants, let alone students/consultants > like myself. > > The question I still have is, what would be a pragmatic way to apply > vocational certifications or credits to Open Source students? Would you > agree at all w/ my earlier suggestion? Which is basically subsidizing > underprivileged students for vocational certifications. They study > themselves, gov assist w/ the cost of certification testing. > > For example, php is FOSS software, yet Zend.com maintains the core of the > language to some degree. Users all over the world can study, play, deploy > php applications all they want. Php being 1 of the web's most popular > server side scripting languages, employers have a hard time filtering out > inexperienced users since they can present beautiful drupal, wordpress, > joomla websites on their CV, yet have very little knowledge of what is > actually going on, on the backend. Zend offers a solution for that, just > like Red Hat linux, they have a certification program. Users pay a fee, > report to the nearest testing center available to actually take the > exam...if they pass, great...now they're Zend certified, but if they > fail...they just spent hundreds of dollars on Nothing. > > TY and keep up the good fight, > Matt > > full disclosure: I'm maintaining your privacy but I did post your replies > to my g+ thread on this matter. I'll be participating in a conference call > w/ Sen Warren on her new legislation to reduce student loan debt. I realize > that is not the venue for me to bring up this topic, but since she asked > for my opinion beforehand, so I tried to speak from a FLOSS perspective as > much as possible, and replied to her office's email w/ a link to my post. I > know, g+ & FLOSS, the irony. HaHa. But hopefully before the call on the > june 3rd, somebody from her office may actually take a look at our > conversation (and hopefully more contribute) and take it into > consideration, perhaps even address it. If anyone on this list would like > an invite to the conference call on the 3rd, let me know and I'll dig it up > for you. > > > On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 8:56 PM, abram stern (aphid) <[email protected]>wrote: > >> Ok, I'll try to be a bit more nuanced... >> >> Yep, I celebrated MIT's OCW years ago and have followed more recent >> developments. Have registered for half a dozen classes on coursera & >> udacity but haven't actually finished any of them. Particularly interested >> that MITX is open source. >> >> Look - I'm no luddite, the benefits of increasing access to knowledge and >> information are huge. >> MOOCs provide a lot of promise but there's still a lot to be critical >> of. The major MOOC players are for profit companies with unclear business >> models (sofar: attract all the venture capitalists, get lots of students, >> ???, profit!). The pedagogical approach is essentially broadcast -- one to >> many -- it removes interaction and participation. >> >> We also have a ton of people with terminal degrees (and the massive debt >> that degree implies) who would love to be teaching, but the jobs aren't >> there. And state budgets are still fucked - underfunded Universities >> raising tuition, increasing class sizes and reducing faculty. At some >> level I don't trust administrators and state legislators to not throw the >> baby out with the bathwater and leave us with an education system modeled >> as broadcast media... hence my line about Clearchannel.. Higher ed >> resembles that too much as it is. >> >> I'm lucky enough to have a course this quarter even if the pay is low and >> there are no benefits (I actually made more as a TA, not even counting the >> tuition subsidy!). Traditionally it was a "learn to adobe suite" class, >> but I'm pushing FLOSS and html5 -- encouraging students to experiment with >> free, cheap, funky and unfamiliar tools they've never heard of. It's >> been a bit of a hard sell to students who for the most part just want to >> learn what they see as 'tools of the trade' (ps, illustrator, flash, maya, >> unity), but it's turning out pretty well. The struggle continues... >> >> I've encouraged my students to use online courseware and even linked to a >> few on my syllabus. I think OCW is particularly valuable in this context >> (alongside other external tutorials, various projects' irc channels, forums >> and youtube howtos) as supplement to class material. >> >> peace &upheaval, >> a >> >> >> On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 7:00 PM, Matt L <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Thank you for your response, >>> >>> I see that you are familiar w/ openCourseWare as a concept, but have you >>> logged into any of the systems and looked at a course or 2? Interaction >>> between the professor and online consumer is nonexistent. Lectures are >>> usually shot by a TA, or possibly a cam on a tripod, then uploaded / >>> labeled / and forgotten. This is Fine. Teachers work very hard, whether >>> they're HS teachers staying up late grading papers, or Professors burning >>> the midnight oil trying to make these incredibly complex concepts palatable >>> for their students in tomorrow's lecture. Users who use the openCourseWare >>> programs, use them to learn simply because they want / need to for 1 reason >>> or another. They do not expect to interact or have their hand held by >>> professors of said courses. Let alone expect any tests to be graded or >>> critiqued. But at this point, no credit or academic acknowledgement of the >>> successful online/passive/self learner is attainable in any way. I simply >>> suggest a possibility of creating an opportunity for the general edu >>> society to provide a possible testing standard to accompany the technology >>> that already exists. Revenue generated by these tests, would again, be paid >>> out to the providers (you) themselves. Pretty much, you'd record the class >>> your already teaching, and create a possible extra revenue stream w/out >>> participating any more than uploading and labeling your own course >>> syllabus. Lot's of different professors uploading the same courses, the >>> testing standard can include a referral system for testers to provide the >>> OCW professors they have viewed in order to feel confident enough to spend >>> $ to test out of the course. If multiple referrals are provided, revenue >>> can be split between all listed. >>> >>> For example, now if you would like to learn web development. You can go >>> online, learn let's say php. Program a few sites, ask and respond to >>> questions in forums (debugging other people's code while you yourself are >>> waiting on an answer to your ? can help you learn different scenarios >>> faster), then study the php maintainers' guide for their certification >>> exam. Said exam will cost a pretty penny (sliding scale), so students will >>> make sure that they fully grasp the material before they spend their own >>> hard earned $ from working jobs at Carls Jr / Dominos pizza on a $200 - >>> $500 test that they may end up failing. >>> >>> That specific part; "Many professors simply would like to teach as many >>> people as possible", refers directly toward those professors who already >>> provide OCW content. Allow me to pose this question. Would you like to see >>> an America that was not so far behind academically in regard to the rest of >>> the world? >>> >>> I'm confident that you, being an elite UCSC educator, would reply Yes to >>> a question framed that way. >>> >>> In that case, wouldn't it be beneficial for the education community as a >>> whole to embrace the system w/ that extra step of student incentive (course >>> or vocation credit) to view all the lecture and course material that is >>> already available. Since if they can and do grasp the material, that allows >>> a disabled / financially challenged / or student w/ extenuating family >>> circumstances to not only learn law / physics / psychology, but they would >>> also have the ability to apply that to their CV. >>> >>> Thank you for your comments on this issue, >>> Matt >>> >>> >>> On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 1:35 PM, abram stern (aphid) <[email protected]>wrote: >>> >>>> Quick rant re: "Many professors simply would like to teach as many >>>> people as possible". I have no interest in teaching "as many students as >>>> possible", well.. let me rephrase. What's possible for me is about 24. >>>> After that I can't remember their names, the projects they're working on, >>>> their previous work, their strengths and their weaknesses. And if I don't >>>> know those things, I can't speak to them as peers or provide guidance >>>> worth-a-shit on their projects. Some things just don't scale. >>>> >>>> Can MOOCs replace large lecture classes? ...maybe. Although I know a >>>> lot of young phds starting out in academia who are terrified that their >>>> curriculum now has to compete with some elder MIT professor's video >>>> channel. Like local radio DJs about to get displaced when Clearchannel >>>> comes to town. >>>> >>>> -a >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 10:43 AM, Matt L <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Consider OpenCourseWare credit: >>>>> >>>>> A portal to search for courses from many of these OpenCourseWare >>>>> providers is: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.ocwconsortium.org >>>>> >>>>> Many universities provide free education online to much of their >>>>> syllabus. Few examples: >>>>> >>>>> http://ocw.mit.edu/index.htm, http://see.stanford.edu/, >>>>> http://ocw.nd.edu/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Ability to test out at low cost if candidate qualifies as eligible; >>>>> or unable to attend college , private or otherwise via disability, >>>>> financial, family, or many other situations where Americans would not be >>>>> able to afford or schedule traditional college. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Incentive for students (obvious and many) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Incentive for teachers: >>>>> >>>>> - >>>>> >>>>> Many professors simply would like to teach as many people as >>>>> possible. This is evident due to the amount of OpenCourseWare available >>>>> already today. Also, Mr. Lessig, Aaron's Swartz' legal advisor and >>>>> friend >>>>> mentioned as much in an interview with Chris Hayes. >>>>> - >>>>> >>>>> JSTOR: the archive in Mr. Swartz's case, recently opened their >>>>> archive with little to no objection from professors or universities. >>>>> http://about.jstor.org/individuals >>>>> - >>>>> >>>>> Any profit earned by the "low cost", listed above, would be paid >>>>> 100% to the producers of the content aka Teachers. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Cost mitigation: >>>>> >>>>> - >>>>> >>>>> Large files, such as lecture videos should embrace tried and true >>>>> peer to peer tech like bittorrent protocols. >>>>> - >>>>> >>>>> Regardless of controversy surrounding the protocol, it is an >>>>> effective way to host very large files for very little bandwidth cost, >>>>> as >>>>> well as in many cases serve your students faster. >>>>> - >>>>> >>>>> Universities/Corporations can host bittorrent "trackers" that do >>>>> not allow submissions from anyone but authorized users or providers. >>>>> - >>>>> >>>>> That way all files, and intellectual property responsibilities >>>>> would be attached to the owners of the files. And moderators would only >>>>> have to filter those authorized providers. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Problems: >>>>> >>>>> - >>>>> >>>>> Some universities, and many community colleges profit will be >>>>> affected negatively by such a project. But those universities have >>>>> programs >>>>> like the NCAA, and are/will be an aspiration for most of our successful >>>>> students regardless of this alternative option. Those students, >>>>> physically >>>>> attending will have the advantage of hands-on labs in facilities they >>>>> otherwise would never have access to as an online student. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Other Points: >>>>> >>>>> - >>>>> >>>>> There many commercials on tv for paid college programs where >>>>> students can earn degrees. These programs can't be better than our >>>>> Finest >>>>> Universities? >>>>> - >>>>> >>>>> Online may be argued as inferior, I wouldn't know, I would be >>>>> interested in a hearing and study regarding efficacy of this type of >>>>> program. But if this type of program would be regarded as inferior, >>>>> degrees >>>>> could reflect the type of education that the (now professionals) have >>>>> received. But I don't see how this would not be considered >>>>> discrimination >>>>> as long as all students had to take the same tests, in the same type of >>>>> environment. For example, a student studies a topic online, when they >>>>> and >>>>> the software feel the student is proficient, that student would then >>>>> schedule a test at a local testing center. (Corp? College?) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What is needed: >>>>> >>>>> - >>>>> >>>>> Long Term >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> - >>>>> >>>>> Bandwidth...it's that simple. If the government would provide >>>>> funds for cloud services where needed, the benefits, considering US >>>>> youth >>>>> and society at large, would be exponential over the generations. The >>>>> Beauty >>>>> of cloud services is that if your system is not being used by the >>>>> public, >>>>> it costs Nothing. Code maintenance should be eligible for certain >>>>> grants >>>>> based on successful results, but at the same time, all should embrace >>>>> the >>>>> open source community (I.E. support and upgrades for a possibly >>>>> standard >>>>> CMS to be shared among the different providers). These costs can run >>>>> from >>>>> minimal all the way to free, it just depends on how much traffic these >>>>> programs receive. If they're deployed in a clever way, each university >>>>> could be mirrored by all the rest. In the case that school A is just >>>>> about >>>>> at it's max bandwidth limit; that would trigger a script to search the >>>>> other mirrors for available bandwidth. It's possible, if done >>>>> correctly, >>>>> that a program like this could be inexpensive Even if popular. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Notes on Obama's speech on Student loans this morning 5/31/2013: >>>>> >>>>> Average student loan: $26,000 >>>>> >>>>> Obama's student loans cost more than his mortgage. While he was still >>>>> paying student loans, he was saving for children's college, yet >>>>> financially >>>>> better off than most Americans. >>>>> >>>>> “Every young person should be able to access higher education” is an >>>>> aspiration of our President since he was a Senator, running for the White >>>>> House. >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Discuss mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://lists.freeculture.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss >>>>> FAQ: http://wiki.freeculture.org/Fc-discuss >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Discuss mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://lists.freeculture.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss >>>> FAQ: http://wiki.freeculture.org/Fc-discuss >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Discuss mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.freeculture.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss >>> FAQ: http://wiki.freeculture.org/Fc-discuss >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Discuss mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.freeculture.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss >> FAQ: http://wiki.freeculture.org/Fc-discuss >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Discuss mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.freeculture.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss > FAQ: http://wiki.freeculture.org/Fc-discuss > >
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