Thanks Bill, and thanks anonymous student for sharing honest feedback. I personally have no problem with spread sheet applications. I use it from time to time when I want to look at my output and color code things and stuff... *gasp!*
But I do agree, I have fallen into the 'why do you use excel? <insert language here> is so much better' mentality after working in R/Python. The good thing from the response was "deal[ing] with the uses of Excel, where it was weak, and how to use it better." I would suggest we continue to build on that (please share what was said there) and to reiterate that Excel is not great for reproducibility and code checking (unless they are coding in VBA). 'human readable data' is okay but emphasize that consistency is **key**. Meaning, if you are going to put multiple tables on the same sheet, ideally these tables will have the same number of columns and rows and have a set number of cells separating them. This way they can transition into the R lesson nicely with the XLConnect package (or something similar) that lets you import excel files by sheet, column start, column end, row start, row end. This way they can at least start to use R for graphics or something, and slowly pick up the new language. The main drawback with Excel is there's no way to check your work. Especially if you do a find & replace's to re-code variables. On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 5:21 PM, Bill Mills <[email protected]> wrote: > Hey all, > > So, a student from a workshop a little while ago didn't have too great a > time, and asked if their feedback could be shared anonymously with > instructors. Feedback follows; be aware, this person is *angry* about what > happened, but nevertheless has many valid points; I'd like to put ire aside > enough to address the key points within. > > > **** begin student comments **** > > There was a [workshop] that was meant to introduce Luddites like myself to > R and the like. I will admit that R is intimidating, and the fanatical, > almost cult-like regard some have for it is more than a tad off-putting to > me, so I have put such a lesson off. Boy. I should have put it off > longer. The workshop was two days. I came only to the first, though I had > planned to go to the second, too. The first part was supposed to deal with > the uses of Excel, where it was weak, and how to use it better. Great, I > thought. I never had any formal instruction in Excel, and instead have > clawed my way into a decent working knowledge of it over the last almost > two decades. I am very proud of what I can do with it, and I have found it > of great use, but I know there is a ton I don't know, so I was looking > forward to that session. However, that session ended up being bitterly > offensive. The basic message being conveyed was "you are an idiot for > using Excel to do anything expect to put data into R, and an even worse > idiot if you do things to make data comprehensible to a human." There were > snide cartoons, there was condescension... It was infuriating. The second > session was better, but still lousy. That was the introduction to R. > However, there was little organization. The files we needed to download > were not the ones they told us to download, and this led to a lot of > confusion at first. Then the instructor was very disorganized in [their] > teaching style, mumbling, not explaining what [they were] doing, and so > on. [They] refused to make any handouts explaining the language of R, so > we were to input commands based on what [they] entered by following [their] > projected screen. However, [they] wouldn't stay in the part of the screen > with the commands long enough for us to easily enter the commands, and then > [they] didn't explain how the commands worked. By the end I was livid, > tired, and very stressed. I was in one of those moods in which I wish I > could run through walls or do other Hulk smash sorts of things. So I > didn't go the next day, and decided to get back into a better state of mind > by going on a camping trip. > > **** end student comments **** > > So, there's a bunch of good content here, but the thing that really sticks > in my pipe is the line about 'There were snide cartoons, there was > condescension...' - I'm certain that there are more perspectives on > whatever was presented, and it all came from a place of good intention, but > having someone walk away from a workshop feeling like 'an idiot' is > something we need to examine whether it was intended or not. > > This is a complicated topic. There are a lot of problems with excel, and > if we can give researchers a better option, we should. But there is also > huge value in meeting researchers where they are with respect, and giving > them the opportunity to try something new that will empower them, rather > than denigrating what they have achieved on their own. I admire researchers > who are able to build an analysis framework out of the zero training they > receive on the topic, whether I like the tools they choose or not. And if > we truly want change, let's lead the charge with opportunity, rather than > trying to prod them from behind with aggression. > > Which is all very nice to say - but how to do it remains a question. I > think that we are prone to communication misfires like the one described > above when we don't really know how to brooch difficult topics. I propose > that we have a discussion about how to approach spreadsheet tools in our > workshops at the next Instructor Hangouts, one week from today (on Sept. > 26); we can chat about what we want to achieve surrounding spreadsheets, > and how to advertise different tools in a way that's going to resonate with > students, rather than get their shields up. We're moving to a Hangouts on > Air setup for this round, so if you would like to participate in the > conversation at 9AM PDT Sept. 26, let me know and I will be sure to save > you a speaking spot in the hangout; those that would like to just observe, > may do so through the youtube broadcast (links forthcoming). > > Phew! This is a tough one - but it's also an opportunity to reach even > more researchers. Looking forward to what we can come up with together! > > -- > Bill Mills > Community Manager, Mozilla Science Lab > @billdoesphysics > > > _______________________________________________ > Discuss mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.software-carpentry.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.software-carpentry.org >
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