Hi, I've recently attended a workshop for data journalists and Excel is basically what they use: they learn it at journalism schools. This is funny when you think about it: Excel has established as the must-have tool in the field, despite of its obvious drawbacks. In my opinion, the main reason is the argument "I'm not a geek/math person, so I cannot program at all, but I can use Excel, because everybody can use Excel". How the instructor approaches this issue is very important, as a fraction of the people in our workshops are trying to overcome this barrier, are feeling insecure and intimidated and happy to jump back to their comfort zones.
The second thing I would say is that more than teaching them a new tool (say R to ditch Excel), we're teaching them a new way of working: automate things that you repeat often, have your files under (version) control, and collaborate easily with your colleagues. I believe that this is why version control is the most popular class. People don't have preconceptions about it and solves an obvious problem for them. I totally agree with Dan and think that when we organize the workshop around this theme, stressing the connections between lessons and doing a capstone exercise that puts all together, they see the advantages by themselves (and I'd say we won). Best, Ivan El 19/09/2014, a las 18:03, Joshua Ainsley <[email protected]> escribió: > Hi everyone, > I agree with many of the points raised and just wanted to briefly add an > experience I had at a bootcamp. > An older professor tried out Python, and was able to get the commands to > work. However, he didn't see how any of it would be more useful for him > compared to Excel, and ended up leaving the bootcamp early. > Some clear examples regarding reproducibility, analysis sharing, and saving > time in every bootcamp could go a long way. > Josh > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 5:55 PM, Daniel Chen <[email protected]> wrote: > Thanks Bill, and thanks anonymous student for sharing honest feedback. > > I personally have no problem with spread sheet applications. I use it from > time to time when I want to look at my output and color code things and > stuff... *gasp!* > > But I do agree, I have fallen into the 'why do you use excel? <insert > language here> is so much better' mentality after working in R/Python. > > The good thing from the response was "deal[ing] with the uses of Excel, where > it was weak, and how to use it better." I would suggest we continue to build > on that (please share what was said there) and to reiterate that Excel is not > great for reproducibility and code checking (unless they are coding in VBA). > > 'human readable data' is okay but emphasize that consistency is **key**. > Meaning, if you are going to put multiple tables on the same sheet, ideally > these tables will have the same number of columns and rows and have a set > number of cells separating them. > > This way they can transition into the R lesson nicely with the XLConnect > package (or something similar) that lets you import excel files by sheet, > column start, column end, row start, row end. This way they can at least > start to use R for graphics or something, and slowly pick up the new language. > > The main drawback with Excel is there's no way to check your work. > Especially if you do a find & replace's to re-code variables. > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 5:21 PM, Bill Mills <[email protected]> > wrote: > Hey all, > > So, a student from a workshop a little while ago didn't have too great a > time, and asked if their feedback could be shared anonymously with > instructors. Feedback follows; be aware, this person is *angry* about what > happened, but nevertheless has many valid points; I'd like to put ire aside > enough to address the key points within. > > > **** begin student comments **** > > There was a [workshop] that was meant to introduce Luddites like myself to R > and the like. I will admit that R is intimidating, and the fanatical, almost > cult-like regard some have for it is more than a tad off-putting to me, so I > have put such a lesson off. Boy. I should have put it off longer. The > workshop was two days. I came only to the first, though I had planned to go > to the second, too. The first part was supposed to deal with the uses of > Excel, where it was weak, and how to use it better. Great, I thought. I > never had any formal instruction in Excel, and instead have clawed my way > into a decent working knowledge of it over the last almost two decades. I am > very proud of what I can do with it, and I have found it of great use, but I > know there is a ton I don't know, so I was looking forward to that session. > However, that session ended up being bitterly offensive. The basic message > being conveyed was "you are an idiot for using Excel to do anything expect to > put data into R, and an even worse idiot if you do things to make data > comprehensible to a human." There were snide cartoons, there was > condescension... It was infuriating. The second session was better, but > still lousy. That was the introduction to R. However, there was little > organization. The files we needed to download were not the ones they told us > to download, and this led to a lot of confusion at first. Then the > instructor was very disorganized in [their] teaching style, mumbling, not > explaining what [they were] doing, and so on. [They] refused to make any > handouts explaining the language of R, so we were to input commands based on > what [they] entered by following [their] projected screen. However, [they] > wouldn't stay in the part of the screen with the commands long enough for us > to easily enter the commands, and then [they] didn't explain how the commands > worked. By the end I was livid, tired, and very stressed. I was in one of > those moods in which I wish I could run through walls or do other Hulk smash > sorts of things. So I didn't go the next day, and decided to get back into a > better state of mind by going on a camping trip. > > **** end student comments **** > > So, there's a bunch of good content here, but the thing that really sticks in > my pipe is the line about 'There were snide cartoons, there was > condescension...' - I'm certain that there are more perspectives on whatever > was presented, and it all came from a place of good intention, but having > someone walk away from a workshop feeling like 'an idiot' is something we > need to examine whether it was intended or not. > > This is a complicated topic. There are a lot of problems with excel, and if > we can give researchers a better option, we should. But there is also huge > value in meeting researchers where they are with respect, and giving them the > opportunity to try something new that will empower them, rather than > denigrating what they have achieved on their own. I admire researchers who > are able to build an analysis framework out of the zero training they receive > on the topic, whether I like the tools they choose or not. And if we truly > want change, let's lead the charge with opportunity, rather than trying to > prod them from behind with aggression. > > Which is all very nice to say - but how to do it remains a question. I think > that we are prone to communication misfires like the one described above when > we don't really know how to brooch difficult topics. I propose that we have a > discussion about how to approach spreadsheet tools in our workshops at the > next Instructor Hangouts, one week from today (on Sept. 26); we can chat > about what we want to achieve surrounding spreadsheets, and how to advertise > different tools in a way that's going to resonate with students, rather than > get their shields up. We're moving to a Hangouts on Air setup for this round, > so if you would like to participate in the conversation at 9AM PDT Sept. 26, > let me know and I will be sure to save you a speaking spot in the hangout; > those that would like to just observe, may do so through the youtube > broadcast (links forthcoming). > > Phew! This is a tough one - but it's also an opportunity to reach even more > researchers. Looking forward to what we can come up with together! > -- > Bill Mills > Community Manager, Mozilla Science Lab > @billdoesphysics > > _______________________________________________ > Discuss mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.software-carpentry.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.software-carpentry.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Discuss mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.software-carpentry.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.software-carpentry.org > > _______________________________________________ > Discuss mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.software-carpentry.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.software-carpentry.org
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