Hi, I think mixing Excel with VBA might be a better idea than mixing Excel with R. Very often language choice easily becomes a religious war. Excel+VBA does have a huge base in certain professional areas. It might deserve to enjoy first-class citizenship. Then we can focus on "programming" and "problem solving" and let the market do language comparative analysis. -kai
On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 3:03 PM, Joshua Ainsley <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi everyone, > I agree with many of the points raised and just wanted to briefly add an > experience I had at a bootcamp. > An older professor tried out Python, and was able to get the commands to > work. However, he didn't see how any of it would be more useful for him > compared to Excel, and ended up leaving the bootcamp early. > Some clear examples regarding reproducibility, analysis sharing, and > saving time in every bootcamp could go a long way. > Josh > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 5:55 PM, Daniel Chen <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Thanks Bill, and thanks anonymous student for sharing honest feedback. >> >> I personally have no problem with spread sheet applications. I use it >> from time to time when I want to look at my output and color code things >> and stuff... *gasp!* >> >> But I do agree, I have fallen into the 'why do you use excel? <insert >> language here> is so much better' mentality after working in R/Python. >> >> The good thing from the response was "deal[ing] with the uses of Excel, >> where it was weak, and how to use it better." I would suggest >> we continue to build on that (please share what was said there) and to >> reiterate that Excel is not great for reproducibility and code >> checking (unless they are coding in VBA). >> >> 'human readable data' is okay but emphasize that consistency is **key**. >> Meaning, if you are going to put multiple tables on the same sheet, >> ideally these tables will have the same number of columns and rows and have >> a set number of cells separating them. >> >> This way they can transition into the R lesson nicely with the XLConnect >> package (or something similar) that lets you import excel files by sheet, >> column start, column end, row start, row end. This way they can at least >> start to use R for graphics or something, and slowly pick up the new >> language. >> >> The main drawback with Excel is there's no way to check your work. >> Especially if you do a find & replace's to re-code variables. >> >> On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 5:21 PM, Bill Mills <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> Hey all, >>> >>> So, a student from a workshop a little while ago didn't have too great a >>> time, and asked if their feedback could be shared anonymously with >>> instructors. Feedback follows; be aware, this person is *angry* about what >>> happened, but nevertheless has many valid points; I'd like to put ire aside >>> enough to address the key points within. >>> >>> >>> **** begin student comments **** >>> >>> There was a [workshop] that was meant to introduce Luddites like myself >>> to R and the like. I will admit that R is intimidating, and the fanatical, >>> almost cult-like regard some have for it is more than a tad off-putting to >>> me, so I have put such a lesson off. Boy. I should have put it off >>> longer. The workshop was two days. I came only to the first, though I had >>> planned to go to the second, too. The first part was supposed to deal with >>> the uses of Excel, where it was weak, and how to use it better. Great, I >>> thought. I never had any formal instruction in Excel, and instead have >>> clawed my way into a decent working knowledge of it over the last almost >>> two decades. I am very proud of what I can do with it, and I have found it >>> of great use, but I know there is a ton I don't know, so I was looking >>> forward to that session. However, that session ended up being bitterly >>> offensive. The basic message being conveyed was "you are an idiot for >>> using Excel to do anything expect to put data into R, and an even worse >>> idiot if you do things to make data comprehensible to a human." There were >>> snide cartoons, there was condescension... It was infuriating. The second >>> session was better, but still lousy. That was the introduction to R. >>> However, there was little organization. The files we needed to download >>> were not the ones they told us to download, and this led to a lot of >>> confusion at first. Then the instructor was very disorganized in [their] >>> teaching style, mumbling, not explaining what [they were] doing, and so >>> on. [They] refused to make any handouts explaining the language of R, so >>> we were to input commands based on what [they] entered by following [their] >>> projected screen. However, [they] wouldn't stay in the part of the screen >>> with the commands long enough for us to easily enter the commands, and then >>> [they] didn't explain how the commands worked. By the end I was livid, >>> tired, and very stressed. I was in one of those moods in which I wish I >>> could run through walls or do other Hulk smash sorts of things. So I >>> didn't go the next day, and decided to get back into a better state of mind >>> by going on a camping trip. >>> >>> **** end student comments **** >>> >>> So, there's a bunch of good content here, but the thing that really >>> sticks in my pipe is the line about 'There were snide cartoons, there was >>> condescension...' - I'm certain that there are more perspectives on >>> whatever was presented, and it all came from a place of good intention, but >>> having someone walk away from a workshop feeling like 'an idiot' is >>> something we need to examine whether it was intended or not. >>> >>> This is a complicated topic. There are a lot of problems with excel, and >>> if we can give researchers a better option, we should. But there is also >>> huge value in meeting researchers where they are with respect, and giving >>> them the opportunity to try something new that will empower them, rather >>> than denigrating what they have achieved on their own. I admire researchers >>> who are able to build an analysis framework out of the zero training they >>> receive on the topic, whether I like the tools they choose or not. And if >>> we truly want change, let's lead the charge with opportunity, rather than >>> trying to prod them from behind with aggression. >>> >>> Which is all very nice to say - but how to do it remains a question. I >>> think that we are prone to communication misfires like the one described >>> above when we don't really know how to brooch difficult topics. I propose >>> that we have a discussion about how to approach spreadsheet tools in our >>> workshops at the next Instructor Hangouts, one week from today (on Sept. >>> 26); we can chat about what we want to achieve surrounding spreadsheets, >>> and how to advertise different tools in a way that's going to resonate with >>> students, rather than get their shields up. We're moving to a Hangouts on >>> Air setup for this round, so if you would like to participate in the >>> conversation at 9AM PDT Sept. 26, let me know and I will be sure to save >>> you a speaking spot in the hangout; those that would like to just observe, >>> may do so through the youtube broadcast (links forthcoming). >>> >>> Phew! This is a tough one - but it's also an opportunity to reach even >>> more researchers. Looking forward to what we can come up with together! >>> >>> -- >>> Bill Mills >>> Community Manager, Mozilla Science Lab >>> @billdoesphysics >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Discuss mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> >>> http://lists.software-carpentry.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.software-carpentry.org >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Discuss mailing list >> [email protected] >> >> http://lists.software-carpentry.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.software-carpentry.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Discuss mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.software-carpentry.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.software-carpentry.org >
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