and to throw another duck in the soup, we now have open office. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Howell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "General discussions on all topics relating to the use of Mac OS X by theblind" <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 7:30 PM Subject: Re: Mac OSX 10.5.6 and OSX Snow Leopard
Oh, I take exception to some of your comments. You are saying that Apple is lax about accessibility of software that is important to those entering into the workforce or wish to use the Mac for more um serious tasks. Well just because iTunes and the iPod were one of the greatest accomplishments most recently, does not mean that Apple is lax or does not clearly understand the importance to blind or any other disabled group when it comes to computers. I think you are quite incorrect. You seem to have missed the fact that a considerably large number of people were screaming like hell to make iTunes accessible and Apple did just that. YOu also need to consider that perhaps iTunes was actually easier to make accessible so it was done first, but then wait, lets not forget iCal which is much better than it was under Tiger. It's quite possible that iWorks will be made accessible very soon and of course like anything else, it'll be partly based on how many are yelling for it and how much development time it'll take. You need to keep things in perspective. Now just so we're clear, I'm not completely defending Apple, I have been on their case many a time about this issue alone. I have a considerable steak in this because I wish to move from the windows platform to the Mac, but until there's an alternative to MS Office, I'm stuck. So, actually Apple is very much committed and working hard toward the goal of making iWorks and other apps accessible, have no doubt on this. On Nov 4, 2008, at 6:43 PM, Simon Cavendish wrote: > What is now crucial to Apple's efforts regarding Voiceover is > improvements to their Iworks and similar pieces of software. I have > already e-mailed Apple Accessibility on a few occasions with the > view to impressing on Apple the importance of making Iworks fully > accessible to visually impaired users if they were to continue in > their ambition to becoming a leading source of adaptive technology > for blind and visually impaired users. I pointed out to Apple in my > communications that the visually impaired users who are increasingly > aspire to entering a working environment will not be able to switch > to Mac operating system unless they can be confident that Mac os can > support their word processing and office related applications. This > is not a luxury option for Apple but an absolute must. Most colleges > and related schemes that enable visually impaired people to enter > the world of work are focused on Windows and the third party very > expensive adaptive technology related to Microsoft and their > satillite businesses like Freedom Scientific or Dollphin. I despair > of the fact that Apple seems to be so relaxed about it. I feel that > they are relaxed about it because they have not so far made Iworks > fully accessible to visually impaired user. Nor have they fully > realised how important computers are to blind people, and visually > impaired individuals' ambitions to live as complete a live as > possible. I think it is one of the gravest mistakes of Mac and > therefore I fear that they may lose the argument regarding which > system is being chosen by necessity by a visually impaired user. I > know of blind people who have been staunch supporters of Mac, having > to switch to Windows in order to be able to work. Apple is being > very lax about addressing this issue. Computers are fun but > accessibility to Itunes or an ipod is not going to be enough to > persuade a blind job seeker to buy a Mac computer. I don't know > what else I can do to impress upon Apple the importance of the needs > of a blind job seekr or student. Apple does not seem to take on > board the fact that most job seekrs and students receive state > assistance to purchase adaptive technology for which they are being > assessed by a rather undiscerning group of individuals. (I emphasise > absolutely here the word "assessed" because this is the reality. > Blind people are assessed regarding their computer and adaptive > technology needs by other non-disabled people who have no knowledge > of Mac os or Voiceover.) These individuals are going to be more > likely to be pursuaded by Microsoft related products, not by Apple > unless Apple takes a positive stance on their proprietary office > relatedsoftware. Indeed, if I were advising a blind job seeker as to > which operating system to go for, I would have to - breaking my > heart of course - say that they would be better off buying a > Windows computer with Jaws. Isn't it just horrendously painful for > me who has spent well-nigh 2 thousand quid to support Apple and > enjoy their technology? Forgive a sarcastic note here. I therefore > rest my case and upon Apple's head be it. If they want to entertain > only, they will find themselves in the minority market. They miss > the very serious point of the predicament a blind person faces, > i.e. work or not to work. Or rather, what is gonna make it easier > for me as a blind person to work or not to work. I don't have to > tell anyone on the list that to work means to have a choice because > work produces money and money in the world that we have created > gives man a choice. Like it or not, this is how it is. > > I don't know how these things are in the US but in Britain, all the > government agencies are focused entirely on Microsoft and its > satellites like Jaws and Hal. Apple is being very inprudent in not > listening to the feedback that I and others have provided it with. > The Market place is what it is, i.e. cut-throat. I have done my best > to make them aware of these issues. More than this I cannot do. It > absolutely baffles me why it is that Iworks is still inaccessible to > blind users. In my experience of the work place, employers are > mostly interested in wheter a blind person can use Ms Office or not. > What can a blind person say at the job interview? "I'm sorry, sir, > I'm waiting for Apple to get their act together". Smile bitterly and > let's hope for the future. Employers are not easily persuaded of a > blind applicant's ability to do the job at the best of times. Unless > a job seeker can confidently say, "I can do so and so using a > computer," forget it. I 0am not talking rubbish. In 2001-2 I was > one of the researchers responsible for the writing and delivery of a > report on "Disability and Employment in Wales", and I spoke to many > blind and other disabled people regarding their experiences of the > work place. I also did a very indepth research of the issues for the > purpose of the research. I am not likely to be unduly emotional on > this subject. The legitimate emotionalism belongs to all those who > have struggled and failed to secure employment of whom I have met > plenty. My thoughts are still with them. > > Just for the record, I'm not being bitter or unkind towards Apple. > I'm just baffled by their inability to understand what the their > advantage might be in the market. I'm also sad because Apple has > made an ethical choice to include a blind user on a sort of equal > footing in their technology in that I can now go to PcWorld and use > a mac computer on the display stand. All I'm saying is that this is > not going to be enough for Apple to move into a dominant position in > the job market for visually impaired computer user/employee. Apple > needs to understand its business potential when it comes to > Voiceover. Unless they realise that blind people have ambitions not > only to play with computers and the internet but also absolutely > rely for their livelihoods and the quality of their lives on a > computer, Apple will not move ahead of Microsoft. > > I've said enough, and I hope I have said it in a non-confrontational > manner. I don't mean to cause offence. I mean to inspire thought and > reflection. > > With best wishes > > Simon > On 4 Nov 2008, at 14:04, Fonzie wrote: > >> Hi all, how are you doing? >> >> Scott, this is true. Universal Access is being tested. >> Accessibility at apple is thanks to that, along with other >> developers they have testing the update. >> >> >> >> >> Take care >> >> Fonzie >> >> >> >> On Nov 4, 2008, at 3:58 AM, Scott Howell wrote: >> >>> Oh I disagree with you, people are testing universal access across >>> the board. >>> On Nov 4, 2008, at 12:26 AM, Fonzie wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all, how goes it? >>>> >>>> Mike, in my original post, I made a mention to OSX 10.5.6 and >>>> what the current findings were. Currently, the mentioned >>>> findings do not mention anything about VoiceOver. >>>> >>>> As mentioned before, people are not usually testing VoiceOver, at >>>> least not to my knowledge. A good example is in the last update >>>> to Leopard. OSX 10.5.5. There was no mention in the release >>>> notes to the speech dictionary being modified. OSX 10.5.3 had a >>>> huge release for VoiceOver, and that seemed to be announced under >>>> the findings when it was seeded. >>>> >>>> Chris, remember, these are incramental updates to the current OS, >>>> which is leopard, or OSX 10.5. Any improvements to the OS, both >>>> benefits us and everyone else. If they make additions to >>>> VoiceOver or modifications, we likely will not know until we >>>> actually make the upgrade, or unless there is an actual >>>> announcement for it. >>>> >>>> As for the new OS you spoke of Chris, Snow Leopard is going to be >>>> written in Coco. It is worth mentioning that VoiceOver is >>>> written in Coco, meaning that changes done to the for Snow >>>> Leopard, meaning, OSX 10.6, will benefit VoiceOver in the long run. >>>> >>>> I do not see apple dropping support for VoiceOver, especially >>>> since they are spending the time to provide accessibility to >>>> everybody, both blind and or sighted, and who are also trying to >>>> further their attempts at making so everyone can use the OS. >>>> >>>> Take care. >>>> >>>> Fonzie >>>> On Nov 3, 2008, at 6:29 PM, Babcock, Michael Alex wrote: >>>> >>>>> what bought up the no voiceover topic? I might have missed >>>>> something >>>>> On Nov 3, 2008, at 3:26 PM, Scott Howell wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Chris, please, Apple really would never shoot themselves in the >>>>>> foot in this way. Hell I can't imagine any company spending >>>>>> that much money on R&D to then just toss it in the trash. The >>>>>> other person who responded is correct in it would be a P R >>>>>> nightmare as well. VoiceOver is here to stay and I assure you >>>>>> that Apple has no plans to stop development anytime soon. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 3, 2008, at 6:19 PM, Chris Gilland wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I hope to God that Voiceover will be a part of the new OS. If >>>>>>> not, then I will unfortunately lose all respect for Apple. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Chris. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Wanna hear the best Christian material around? Anything from >>>>>>> music such as southern gospel, CCM, Kid's Christian, harder >>>>>>> edge, Christian rap, and more? Wanna hear good time preaching? >>>>>>> How about some Christian programming, such as Adventures in >>>>>>> Odyssey, Focus on the Family with James Dopson, Dawson >>>>>>> McAllister Live, Alive with Ron Hutchcraft, and more? then >>>>>>> come join us on Kingdom Net Radio! You can find the listen >>>>>>> link for your appropriate player from our home page, which can >>>>>>> be found at: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.blindperspectives.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Enjoy! >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fonzie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> To: "General discussions on all topics relating to the use of >>>>>>> Mac OS X by theblind" <[email protected]> >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 8:44 AM >>>>>>> Subject: Mac OSX 10.5.6 and OSX Snow Leopard >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi all, ho are you doing? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> While looking up the mentioned subject line, I thought I >>>>>>>> would provide a link to some of hte seed notes for OSX >>>>>>>> 10.5.6. Here it is. It is interesting, but I yet do not see >>>>>>>> anything involving VoiceOver. To be fair, people are not >>>>>>>> usually testing VoiceOver, and with hte exception of 10.5.3, >>>>>>>> it may or may not be public at it's release. You should >>>>>>>> find them interesting all the same. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://news.softpedia.com/news/Mac-OS-X-10-5-6-9G21-Seed-Notes-Out-96638.shtml >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 10.6 Snow Leopard, I have found only the following. >>>>>>>> Currently, from what I can see, the finder window is now >>>>>>>> completely written in coco. The entire OS is supposed to be >>>>>>>> written in coco, so that is always good to hear. we really >>>>>>>> won't know it's entirety until it is actually released, but >>>>>>>> little tid bits or nice here and there. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Take care all. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Fonzie >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Scott Howell >>>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Michael Babcock, owner of >>>>> http://gwhosting.net >>>>> Check out my blog at: >>>>> http://feeds.feedburner.com/GwNetworks >>>>> twitter at: http://twitter.com/creepyblindy >>>>> and brightkite at: http://brightkite.com/people/creepyblindy >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> Scott Howell >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > Scott Howell [EMAIL PROTECTED]
