The problem is that many people don't have a choice. You either go
with what the agencies want to give you, or you get nothing and have
to pay for it all yourself. I personally haven't dealt with any
agencies in years, I got sick of them telling me what was better when
I knew differently. But for many people this isn't an option, either
because they don't have the money to get it themselves or because they
have no interest in looking outside of their agency. The latter case
is their own fault, and being able to just buy a computer like a Mac
would definitely cut down on the first case, but most people don't
know how or wish to look for themselves. They'd rather have someone
tell them what to do and be secure in that decision that wasn't their
own. And this behavior is not limited to technology cases, many people
behave this way in other aspects.
On Nov 5, 2008, at 09:20, kaare dehard wrote:
Just to add to this, I think that as a community, we should look at
the guidence provided as a starting point, not a biblical
commandment, and as a community we really need to verify for
ourselves whether this guidance fits our particular situation.
Cheers,
Kaare.
On 5-Nov-08, at 2:22 AM, Simon Cavendish wrote:
Thanks, Scott, I am taking your point and my perceptions are just
that. I too do support Apple whole-heartedly and cannot wait to
move entirely away from Windows. I have also said what I did in the
message because those who guide blind and visually impaired people
in the choice of adaptive technology in my experience hardly ever
talk about Apple's accessibility largely I feel because of the
dominance of Ms Office. I meant no offence.
On 5 Nov 2008, at 00:30, Scott Howell wrote:
Oh, I take exception to some of your comments. You are saying that
Apple is lax about accessibility of software that is important to
those entering into the workforce or wish to use the Mac for more
um serious tasks. Well just because iTunes and the iPod were one
of the greatest accomplishments most recently, does not mean that
Apple is lax or does not clearly understand the importance to
blind or any other disabled group when it comes to computers. I
think you are quite incorrect. You seem to have missed the fact
that a considerably large number of people were screaming like
hell to make iTunes accessible and Apple did just that. YOu also
need to consider that perhaps iTunes was actually easier to make
accessible so it was done first, but then wait, lets not forget
iCal which is much better than it was under Tiger. It's quite
possible that iWorks will be made accessible very soon and of
course like anything else, it'll be partly based on how many are
yelling for it and how much development time it'll take. You need
to keep things in perspective. Now just so we're clear, I'm not
completely defending Apple, I have been on their case many a time
about this issue alone. I have a considerable steak in this
because I wish to move from the windows platform to the Mac, but
until there's an alternative to MS Office, I'm stuck. So, actually
Apple is very much committed and working hard toward the goal of
making iWorks and other apps accessible, have no doubt on this.
On Nov 4, 2008, at 6:43 PM, Simon Cavendish wrote:
What is now crucial to Apple's efforts regarding Voiceover is
improvements to their Iworks and similar pieces of software. I
have already e-mailed Apple Accessibility on a few occasions with
the view to impressing on Apple the importance of making Iworks
fully accessible to visually impaired users if they were to
continue in their ambition to becoming a leading source of
adaptive technology for blind and visually impaired users. I
pointed out to Apple in my communications that the visually
impaired users who are increasingly aspire to entering a working
environment will not be able to switch to Mac operating system
unless they can be confident that Mac os can support their word
processing and office related applications. This is not a luxury
option for Apple but an absolute must. Most colleges and related
schemes that enable visually impaired people to enter the world
of work are focused on Windows and the third party very expensive
adaptive technology related to Microsoft and their satillite
businesses like Freedom Scientific or Dollphin. I despair of the
fact that Apple seems to be so relaxed about it. I feel that they
are relaxed about it because they have not so far made Iworks
fully accessible to visually impaired user. Nor have they fully
realised how important computers are to blind people, and
visually impaired individuals' ambitions to live as complete a
live as possible. I think it is one of the gravest mistakes of
Mac and therefore I fear that they may lose the argument
regarding which system is being chosen by necessity by a visually
impaired user. I know of blind people who have been staunch
supporters of Mac, having to switch to Windows in order to be
able to work. Apple is being very lax about addressing this
issue. Computers are fun but accessibility to Itunes or an ipod
is not going to be enough to persuade a blind job seeker to buy a
Mac computer. I don't know what else I can do to impress upon
Apple the importance of the needs of a blind job seekr or
student. Apple does not seem to take on board the fact that most
job seekrs and students receive state assistance to purchase
adaptive technology for which they are being assessed by a rather
undiscerning group of individuals. (I emphasise absolutely here
the word "assessed" because this is the reality. Blind people are
assessed regarding their computer and adaptive technology needs
by other non-disabled people who have no knowledge of Mac os or
Voiceover.) These individuals are going to be more likely to be
pursuaded by Microsoft related products, not by Apple unless
Apple takes a positive stance on their proprietary office
relatedsoftware. Indeed, if I were advising a blind job seeker as
to which operating system to go for, I would have to - breaking
my heart of course - say that they would be better off buying a
Windows computer with Jaws. Isn't it just horrendously painful
for me who has spent well-nigh 2 thousand quid to support Apple
and enjoy their technology? Forgive a sarcastic note here. I
therefore rest my case and upon Apple's head be it. If they want
to entertain only, they will find themselves in the minority
market. They miss the very serious point of the predicament a
blind person faces, i.e. work or not to work. Or rather, what is
gonna make it easier for me as a blind person to work or not to
work. I don't have to tell anyone on the list that to work means
to have a choice because work produces money and money in the
world that we have created gives man a choice. Like it or not,
this is how it is.
I don't know how these things are in the US but in Britain, all
the government agencies are focused entirely on Microsoft and its
satellites like Jaws and Hal. Apple is being very inprudent in
not listening to the feedback that I and others have provided it
with. The Market place is what it is, i.e. cut-throat. I have
done my best to make them aware of these issues. More than this I
cannot do. It absolutely baffles me why it is that Iworks is
still inaccessible to blind users. In my experience of the work
place, employers are mostly interested in wheter a blind person
can use Ms Office or not. What can a blind person say at the job
interview? "I'm sorry, sir, I'm waiting for Apple to get their
act together". Smile bitterly and let's hope for the future.
Employers are not easily persuaded of a blind applicant's ability
to do the job at the best of times. Unless a job seeker can
confidently say, "I can do so and so using a computer," forget
it. I 0am not talking rubbish. In 2001-2 I was one of the
researchers responsible for the writing and delivery of a report
on "Disability and Employment in Wales", and I spoke to many
blind and other disabled people regarding their experiences of
the work place. I also did a very indepth research of the issues
for the purpose of the research. I am not likely to be unduly
emotional on this subject. The legitimate emotionalism belongs to
all those who have struggled and failed to secure employment of
whom I have met plenty. My thoughts are still with them.
Just for the record, I'm not being bitter or unkind towards
Apple. I'm just baffled by their inability to understand what the
their advantage might be in the market. I'm also sad because
Apple has made an ethical choice to include a blind user on a
sort of equal footing in their technology in that I can now go to
PcWorld and use a mac computer on the display stand. All I'm
saying is that this is not going to be enough for Apple to move
into a dominant position in the job market for visually impaired
computer user/employee. Apple needs to understand its business
potential when it comes to Voiceover. Unless they realise that
blind people have ambitions not only to play with computers and
the internet but also absolutely rely for their livelihoods and
the quality of their lives on a computer, Apple will not move
ahead of Microsoft.
I've said enough, and I hope I have said it in a non-
confrontational manner. I don't mean to cause offence. I mean to
inspire thought and reflection.
With best wishes
Simon
On 4 Nov 2008, at 14:04, Fonzie wrote:
Hi all, how are you doing?
Scott, this is true. Universal Access is being tested.
Accessibility at apple is thanks to that, along with other
developers they have testing the update.
Take care
Fonzie
On Nov 4, 2008, at 3:58 AM, Scott Howell wrote:
Oh I disagree with you, people are testing universal access
across the board.
On Nov 4, 2008, at 12:26 AM, Fonzie wrote:
Hi all, how goes it?
Mike, in my original post, I made a mention to OSX 10.5.6 and
what the current findings were. Currently, the mentioned
findings do not mention anything about VoiceOver.
As mentioned before, people are not usually testing VoiceOver,
at least not to my knowledge. A good example is in the last
update to Leopard. OSX 10.5.5. There was no mention in the
release notes to the speech dictionary being modified. OSX
10.5.3 had a huge release for VoiceOver, and that seemed to be
announced under the findings when it was seeded.
Chris, remember, these are incramental updates to the current
OS, which is leopard, or OSX 10.5. Any improvements to the
OS, both benefits us and everyone else. If they make
additions to VoiceOver or modifications, we likely will not
know until we actually make the upgrade, or unless there is an
actual announcement for it.
As for the new OS you spoke of Chris, Snow Leopard is going to
be written in Coco. It is worth mentioning that VoiceOver is
written in Coco, meaning that changes done to the for Snow
Leopard, meaning, OSX 10.6, will benefit VoiceOver in the long
run.
I do not see apple dropping support for VoiceOver, especially
since they are spending the time to provide accessibility to
everybody, both blind and or sighted, and who are also trying
to further their attempts at making so everyone can use the OS.
Take care.
Fonzie
On Nov 3, 2008, at 6:29 PM, Babcock, Michael Alex wrote:
what bought up the no voiceover topic? I might have missed
something
On Nov 3, 2008, at 3:26 PM, Scott Howell wrote:
Chris, please, Apple really would never shoot themselves in
the foot in this way. Hell I can't imagine any company
spending that much money on R&D to then just toss it in the
trash. The other person who responded is correct in it would
be a P R nightmare as well. VoiceOver is here to stay and I
assure you that Apple has no plans to stop development
anytime soon.
On Nov 3, 2008, at 6:19 PM, Chris Gilland wrote:
I hope to God that Voiceover will be a part of the new OS.
If not, then I will unfortunately lose all respect for Apple.
Chris.
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----- Original Message ----- From: "Fonzie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
To: "General discussions on all topics relating to the use
of Mac OS X by theblind" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 8:44 AM
Subject: Mac OSX 10.5.6 and OSX Snow Leopard
Hi all, ho are you doing?
While looking up the mentioned subject line, I thought I
would provide a link to some of hte seed notes for OSX
10.5.6. Here it is. It is interesting, but I yet do not
see anything involving VoiceOver. To be fair, people are
not usually testing VoiceOver, and with hte exception of
10.5.3, it may or may not be public at it's release. You
should find them interesting all the same.
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Mac-OS-X-10-5-6-9G21-Seed-Notes-Out-96638.shtml
On 10.6 Snow Leopard, I have found only the following.
Currently, from what I can see, the finder window is now
completely written in coco. The entire OS is supposed to
be written in coco, so that is always good to hear. we
really won't know it's entirety until it is actually
released, but little tid bits or nice here and there.
Take care all.
Fonzie
Scott Howell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Michael Babcock, owner of
http://gwhosting.net
Check out my blog at:
http://feeds.feedburner.com/GwNetworks
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Scott Howell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Scott Howell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
