No offense taken. My point is that Apple tends to keep quiet as others
have pointed out. I understand your point and the perception is at
times greater than the reality and has the greatest impact on folks.
The one thing that Apple may or may not understand as is likely true
with other companies, the "blind" community tends to be a little
different market in terms of what is and what is perceived. This can
create problems I suspect at times for those prepared to drop a chunk
on some new adaptive technology or those lobbying for the technology.
I guess what I'm saying is when we purchase a computer etc. it's not
like we run down to the local Best Buy etc. and just get a machine. We
have to contend with all the additional software etc. to make that
machine function for us. Now we have in fact reached a point where we
can in fact run down to the local Apple store and purchase an
accessible machine without having to consider anything beyond the
machine. Well, then yes, once we have a wider selection of software in
the form of iWorks etc. we'll really have reached a new state.
Hopefully that makes some sense. So, I don't disagree with you, just
with some of what you said, but again, no offense taken.
On Nov 5, 2008, at 2:22 AM, Simon Cavendish wrote:
Thanks, Scott, I am taking your point and my perceptions are just
that. I too do support Apple whole-heartedly and cannot wait to move
entirely away from Windows. I have also said what I did in the
message because those who guide blind and visually impaired people
in the choice of adaptive technology in my experience hardly ever
talk about Apple's accessibility largely I feel because of the
dominance of Ms Office. I meant no offence.
On 5 Nov 2008, at 00:30, Scott Howell wrote:
Oh, I take exception to some of your comments. You are saying that
Apple is lax about accessibility of software that is important to
those entering into the workforce or wish to use the Mac for more
um serious tasks. Well just because iTunes and the iPod were one of
the greatest accomplishments most recently, does not mean that
Apple is lax or does not clearly understand the importance to blind
or any other disabled group when it comes to computers. I think you
are quite incorrect. You seem to have missed the fact that a
considerably large number of people were screaming like hell to
make iTunes accessible and Apple did just that. YOu also need to
consider that perhaps iTunes was actually easier to make accessible
so it was done first, but then wait, lets not forget iCal which is
much better than it was under Tiger. It's quite possible that
iWorks will be made accessible very soon and of course like
anything else, it'll be partly based on how many are yelling for it
and how much development time it'll take. You need to keep things
in perspective. Now just so we're clear, I'm not completely
defending Apple, I have been on their case many a time about this
issue alone. I have a considerable steak in this because I wish to
move from the windows platform to the Mac, but until there's an
alternative to MS Office, I'm stuck. So, actually Apple is very
much committed and working hard toward the goal of making iWorks
and other apps accessible, have no doubt on this.
On Nov 4, 2008, at 6:43 PM, Simon Cavendish wrote:
What is now crucial to Apple's efforts regarding Voiceover is
improvements to their Iworks and similar pieces of software. I
have already e-mailed Apple Accessibility on a few occasions with
the view to impressing on Apple the importance of making Iworks
fully accessible to visually impaired users if they were to
continue in their ambition to becoming a leading source of
adaptive technology for blind and visually impaired users. I
pointed out to Apple in my communications that the visually
impaired users who are increasingly aspire to entering a working
environment will not be able to switch to Mac operating system
unless they can be confident that Mac os can support their word
processing and office related applications. This is not a luxury
option for Apple but an absolute must. Most colleges and related
schemes that enable visually impaired people to enter the world of
work are focused on Windows and the third party very expensive
adaptive technology related to Microsoft and their satillite
businesses like Freedom Scientific or Dollphin. I despair of the
fact that Apple seems to be so relaxed about it. I feel that they
are relaxed about it because they have not so far made Iworks
fully accessible to visually impaired user. Nor have they fully
realised how important computers are to blind people, and visually
impaired individuals' ambitions to live as complete a live as
possible. I think it is one of the gravest mistakes of Mac and
therefore I fear that they may lose the argument regarding which
system is being chosen by necessity by a visually impaired user. I
know of blind people who have been staunch supporters of Mac,
having to switch to Windows in order to be able to work. Apple is
being very lax about addressing this issue. Computers are fun but
accessibility to Itunes or an ipod is not going to be enough to
persuade a blind job seeker to buy a Mac computer. I don't know
what else I can do to impress upon Apple the importance of the
needs of a blind job seekr or student. Apple does not seem to take
on board the fact that most job seekrs and students receive state
assistance to purchase adaptive technology for which they are
being assessed by a rather undiscerning group of individuals. (I
emphasise absolutely here the word "assessed" because this is the
reality. Blind people are assessed regarding their computer and
adaptive technology needs by other non-disabled people who have no
knowledge of Mac os or Voiceover.) These individuals are going to
be more likely to be pursuaded by Microsoft related products, not
by Apple unless Apple takes a positive stance on their proprietary
office relatedsoftware. Indeed, if I were advising a blind job
seeker as to which operating system to go for, I would have to -
breaking my heart of course - say that they would be better off
buying a Windows computer with Jaws. Isn't it just horrendously
painful for me who has spent well-nigh 2 thousand quid to support
Apple and enjoy their technology? Forgive a sarcastic note here. I
therefore rest my case and upon Apple's head be it. If they want
to entertain only, they will find themselves in the minority
market. They miss the very serious point of the predicament a
blind person faces, i.e. work or not to work. Or rather, what is
gonna make it easier for me as a blind person to work or not to
work. I don't have to tell anyone on the list that to work means
to have a choice because work produces money and money in the
world that we have created gives man a choice. Like it or not,
this is how it is.
I don't know how these things are in the US but in Britain, all
the government agencies are focused entirely on Microsoft and its
satellites like Jaws and Hal. Apple is being very inprudent in not
listening to the feedback that I and others have provided it with.
The Market place is what it is, i.e. cut-throat. I have done my
best to make them aware of these issues. More than this I cannot
do. It absolutely baffles me why it is that Iworks is still
inaccessible to blind users. In my experience of the work place,
employers are mostly interested in wheter a blind person can use
Ms Office or not. What can a blind person say at the job
interview? "I'm sorry, sir, I'm waiting for Apple to get their act
together". Smile bitterly and let's hope for the future. Employers
are not easily persuaded of a blind applicant's ability to do the
job at the best of times. Unless a job seeker can confidently say,
"I can do so and so using a computer," forget it. I 0am not
talking rubbish. In 2001-2 I was one of the researchers
responsible for the writing and delivery of a report on
"Disability and Employment in Wales", and I spoke to many blind
and other disabled people regarding their experiences of the work
place. I also did a very indepth research of the issues for the
purpose of the research. I am not likely to be unduly emotional on
this subject. The legitimate emotionalism belongs to all those who
have struggled and failed to secure employment of whom I have met
plenty. My thoughts are still with them.
Just for the record, I'm not being bitter or unkind towards Apple.
I'm just baffled by their inability to understand what the their
advantage might be in the market. I'm also sad because Apple has
made an ethical choice to include a blind user on a sort of equal
footing in their technology in that I can now go to PcWorld and
use a mac computer on the display stand. All I'm saying is that
this is not going to be enough for Apple to move into a dominant
position in the job market for visually impaired computer user/
employee. Apple needs to understand its business potential when
it comes to Voiceover. Unless they realise that blind people have
ambitions not only to play with computers and the internet but
also absolutely rely for their livelihoods and the quality of
their lives on a computer, Apple will not move ahead of Microsoft.
I've said enough, and I hope I have said it in a non-
confrontational manner. I don't mean to cause offence. I mean to
inspire thought and reflection.
With best wishes
Simon
On 4 Nov 2008, at 14:04, Fonzie wrote:
Hi all, how are you doing?
Scott, this is true. Universal Access is being tested.
Accessibility at apple is thanks to that, along with other
developers they have testing the update.
Take care
Fonzie
On Nov 4, 2008, at 3:58 AM, Scott Howell wrote:
Oh I disagree with you, people are testing universal access
across the board.
On Nov 4, 2008, at 12:26 AM, Fonzie wrote:
Hi all, how goes it?
Mike, in my original post, I made a mention to OSX 10.5.6 and
what the current findings were. Currently, the mentioned
findings do not mention anything about VoiceOver.
As mentioned before, people are not usually testing VoiceOver,
at least not to my knowledge. A good example is in the last
update to Leopard. OSX 10.5.5. There was no mention in the
release notes to the speech dictionary being modified. OSX
10.5.3 had a huge release for VoiceOver, and that seemed to be
announced under the findings when it was seeded.
Chris, remember, these are incramental updates to the current
OS, which is leopard, or OSX 10.5. Any improvements to the OS,
both benefits us and everyone else. If they make additions to
VoiceOver or modifications, we likely will not know until we
actually make the upgrade, or unless there is an actual
announcement for it.
As for the new OS you spoke of Chris, Snow Leopard is going to
be written in Coco. It is worth mentioning that VoiceOver is
written in Coco, meaning that changes done to the for Snow
Leopard, meaning, OSX 10.6, will benefit VoiceOver in the long
run.
I do not see apple dropping support for VoiceOver, especially
since they are spending the time to provide accessibility to
everybody, both blind and or sighted, and who are also trying
to further their attempts at making so everyone can use the OS.
Take care.
Fonzie
On Nov 3, 2008, at 6:29 PM, Babcock, Michael Alex wrote:
what bought up the no voiceover topic? I might have missed
something
On Nov 3, 2008, at 3:26 PM, Scott Howell wrote:
Chris, please, Apple really would never shoot themselves in
the foot in this way. Hell I can't imagine any company
spending that much money on R&D to then just toss it in the
trash. The other person who responded is correct in it would
be a P R nightmare as well. VoiceOver is here to stay and I
assure you that Apple has no plans to stop development
anytime soon.
On Nov 3, 2008, at 6:19 PM, Chris Gilland wrote:
I hope to God that Voiceover will be a part of the new OS.
If not, then I will unfortunately lose all respect for Apple.
Chris.
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----- Original Message ----- From: "Fonzie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
To: "General discussions on all topics relating to the use
of Mac OS X by theblind" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 8:44 AM
Subject: Mac OSX 10.5.6 and OSX Snow Leopard
Hi all, ho are you doing?
While looking up the mentioned subject line, I thought I
would provide a link to some of hte seed notes for OSX
10.5.6. Here it is. It is interesting, but I yet do not
see anything involving VoiceOver. To be fair, people are
not usually testing VoiceOver, and with hte exception of
10.5.3, it may or may not be public at it's release. You
should find them interesting all the same.
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Mac-OS-X-10-5-6-9G21-Seed-Notes-Out-96638.shtml
On 10.6 Snow Leopard, I have found only the following.
Currently, from what I can see, the finder window is now
completely written in coco. The entire OS is supposed to
be written in coco, so that is always good to hear. we
really won't know it's entirety until it is actually
released, but little tid bits or nice here and there.
Take care all.
Fonzie
Scott Howell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Michael Babcock, owner of
http://gwhosting.net
Check out my blog at:
http://feeds.feedburner.com/GwNetworks
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Scott Howell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Scott Howell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Scott Howell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
