Thanks, Scott, I am taking your point and my perceptions are just
that. I too do support Apple whole-heartedly and cannot wait to move
entirely away from Windows. I have also said what I did in the message
because those who guide blind and visually impaired people in the
choice of adaptive technology in my experience hardly ever talk about
Apple's accessibility largely I feel because of the dominance of Ms
Office. I meant no offence.
On 5 Nov 2008, at 00:30, Scott Howell wrote:
Oh, I take exception to some of your comments. You are saying that
Apple is lax about accessibility of software that is important to
those entering into the workforce or wish to use the Mac for more um
serious tasks. Well just because iTunes and the iPod were one of the
greatest accomplishments most recently, does not mean that Apple is
lax or does not clearly understand the importance to blind or any
other disabled group when it comes to computers. I think you are
quite incorrect. You seem to have missed the fact that a
considerably large number of people were screaming like hell to make
iTunes accessible and Apple did just that. YOu also need to consider
that perhaps iTunes was actually easier to make accessible so it was
done first, but then wait, lets not forget iCal which is much better
than it was under Tiger. It's quite possible that iWorks will be
made accessible very soon and of course like anything else, it'll be
partly based on how many are yelling for it and how much development
time it'll take. You need to keep things in perspective. Now just so
we're clear, I'm not completely defending Apple, I have been on
their case many a time about this issue alone. I have a considerable
steak in this because I wish to move from the windows platform to
the Mac, but until there's an alternative to MS Office, I'm stuck.
So, actually Apple is very much committed and working hard toward
the goal of making iWorks and other apps accessible, have no doubt
on this.
On Nov 4, 2008, at 6:43 PM, Simon Cavendish wrote:
What is now crucial to Apple's efforts regarding Voiceover is
improvements to their Iworks and similar pieces of software. I have
already e-mailed Apple Accessibility on a few occasions with the
view to impressing on Apple the importance of making Iworks fully
accessible to visually impaired users if they were to continue in
their ambition to becoming a leading source of adaptive technology
for blind and visually impaired users. I pointed out to Apple in my
communications that the visually impaired users who are
increasingly aspire to entering a working environment will not be
able to switch to Mac operating system unless they can be confident
that Mac os can support their word processing and office related
applications. This is not a luxury option for Apple but an absolute
must. Most colleges and related schemes that enable visually
impaired people to enter the world of work are focused on Windows
and the third party very expensive adaptive technology related to
Microsoft and their satillite businesses like Freedom Scientific
or Dollphin. I despair of the fact that Apple seems to be so
relaxed about it. I feel that they are relaxed about it because
they have not so far made Iworks fully accessible to visually
impaired user. Nor have they fully realised how important computers
are to blind people, and visually impaired individuals' ambitions
to live as complete a live as possible. I think it is one of the
gravest mistakes of Mac and therefore I fear that they may lose the
argument regarding which system is being chosen by necessity by a
visually impaired user. I know of blind people who have been
staunch supporters of Mac, having to switch to Windows in order to
be able to work. Apple is being very lax about addressing this
issue. Computers are fun but accessibility to Itunes or an ipod is
not going to be enough to persuade a blind job seeker to buy a Mac
computer. I don't know what else I can do to impress upon Apple
the importance of the needs of a blind job seekr or student. Apple
does not seem to take on board the fact that most job seekrs and
students receive state assistance to purchase adaptive technology
for which they are being assessed by a rather undiscerning group of
individuals. (I emphasise absolutely here the word "assessed"
because this is the reality. Blind people are assessed regarding
their computer and adaptive technology needs by other non-disabled
people who have no knowledge of Mac os or Voiceover.) These
individuals are going to be more likely to be pursuaded by
Microsoft related products, not by Apple unless Apple takes a
positive stance on their proprietary office relatedsoftware.
Indeed, if I were advising a blind job seeker as to which operating
system to go for, I would have to - breaking my heart of course -
say that they would be better off buying a Windows computer with
Jaws. Isn't it just horrendously painful for me who has spent well-
nigh 2 thousand quid to support Apple and enjoy their technology?
Forgive a sarcastic note here. I therefore rest my case and upon
Apple's head be it. If they want to entertain only, they will find
themselves in the minority market. They miss the very serious point
of the predicament a blind person faces, i.e. work or not to work.
Or rather, what is gonna make it easier for me as a blind person to
work or not to work. I don't have to tell anyone on the list that
to work means to have a choice because work produces money and
money in the world that we have created gives man a choice. Like it
or not, this is how it is.
I don't know how these things are in the US but in Britain, all the
government agencies are focused entirely on Microsoft and its
satellites like Jaws and Hal. Apple is being very inprudent in not
listening to the feedback that I and others have provided it with.
The Market place is what it is, i.e. cut-throat. I have done my
best to make them aware of these issues. More than this I cannot
do. It absolutely baffles me why it is that Iworks is still
inaccessible to blind users. In my experience of the work place,
employers are mostly interested in wheter a blind person can use Ms
Office or not. What can a blind person say at the job interview?
"I'm sorry, sir, I'm waiting for Apple to get their act together".
Smile bitterly and let's hope for the future. Employers are not
easily persuaded of a blind applicant's ability to do the job at
the best of times. Unless a job seeker can confidently say, "I can
do so and so using a computer," forget it. I 0am not talking
rubbish. In 2001-2 I was one of the researchers responsible for the
writing and delivery of a report on "Disability and Employment in
Wales", and I spoke to many blind and other disabled people
regarding their experiences of the work place. I also did a very
indepth research of the issues for the purpose of the research. I
am not likely to be unduly emotional on this subject. The
legitimate emotionalism belongs to all those who have struggled and
failed to secure employment of whom I have met plenty. My thoughts
are still with them.
Just for the record, I'm not being bitter or unkind towards Apple.
I'm just baffled by their inability to understand what the their
advantage might be in the market. I'm also sad because Apple has
made an ethical choice to include a blind user on a sort of equal
footing in their technology in that I can now go to PcWorld and use
a mac computer on the display stand. All I'm saying is that this is
not going to be enough for Apple to move into a dominant position
in the job market for visually impaired computer user/employee.
Apple needs to understand its business potential when it comes to
Voiceover. Unless they realise that blind people have ambitions not
only to play with computers and the internet but also absolutely
rely for their livelihoods and the quality of their lives on a
computer, Apple will not move ahead of Microsoft.
I've said enough, and I hope I have said it in a non-
confrontational manner. I don't mean to cause offence. I mean to
inspire thought and reflection.
With best wishes
Simon
On 4 Nov 2008, at 14:04, Fonzie wrote:
Hi all, how are you doing?
Scott, this is true. Universal Access is being tested.
Accessibility at apple is thanks to that, along with other
developers they have testing the update.
Take care
Fonzie
On Nov 4, 2008, at 3:58 AM, Scott Howell wrote:
Oh I disagree with you, people are testing universal access
across the board.
On Nov 4, 2008, at 12:26 AM, Fonzie wrote:
Hi all, how goes it?
Mike, in my original post, I made a mention to OSX 10.5.6 and
what the current findings were. Currently, the mentioned
findings do not mention anything about VoiceOver.
As mentioned before, people are not usually testing VoiceOver,
at least not to my knowledge. A good example is in the last
update to Leopard. OSX 10.5.5. There was no mention in the
release notes to the speech dictionary being modified. OSX
10.5.3 had a huge release for VoiceOver, and that seemed to be
announced under the findings when it was seeded.
Chris, remember, these are incramental updates to the current
OS, which is leopard, or OSX 10.5. Any improvements to the OS,
both benefits us and everyone else. If they make additions to
VoiceOver or modifications, we likely will not know until we
actually make the upgrade, or unless there is an actual
announcement for it.
As for the new OS you spoke of Chris, Snow Leopard is going to
be written in Coco. It is worth mentioning that VoiceOver is
written in Coco, meaning that changes done to the for Snow
Leopard, meaning, OSX 10.6, will benefit VoiceOver in the long
run.
I do not see apple dropping support for VoiceOver, especially
since they are spending the time to provide accessibility to
everybody, both blind and or sighted, and who are also trying to
further their attempts at making so everyone can use the OS.
Take care.
Fonzie
On Nov 3, 2008, at 6:29 PM, Babcock, Michael Alex wrote:
what bought up the no voiceover topic? I might have missed
something
On Nov 3, 2008, at 3:26 PM, Scott Howell wrote:
Chris, please, Apple really would never shoot themselves in
the foot in this way. Hell I can't imagine any company
spending that much money on R&D to then just toss it in the
trash. The other person who responded is correct in it would
be a P R nightmare as well. VoiceOver is here to stay and I
assure you that Apple has no plans to stop development anytime
soon.
On Nov 3, 2008, at 6:19 PM, Chris Gilland wrote:
I hope to God that Voiceover will be a part of the new OS.
If not, then I will unfortunately lose all respect for Apple.
Chris.
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----- Original Message ----- From: "Fonzie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
To: "General discussions on all topics relating to the use of
Mac OS X by theblind" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 8:44 AM
Subject: Mac OSX 10.5.6 and OSX Snow Leopard
Hi all, ho are you doing?
While looking up the mentioned subject line, I thought I
would provide a link to some of hte seed notes for OSX
10.5.6. Here it is. It is interesting, but I yet do not
see anything involving VoiceOver. To be fair, people are
not usually testing VoiceOver, and with hte exception of
10.5.3, it may or may not be public at it's release. You
should find them interesting all the same.
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Mac-OS-X-10-5-6-9G21-Seed-Notes-Out-96638.shtml
On 10.6 Snow Leopard, I have found only the following.
Currently, from what I can see, the finder window is now
completely written in coco. The entire OS is supposed to
be written in coco, so that is always good to hear. we
really won't know it's entirety until it is actually
released, but little tid bits or nice here and there.
Take care all.
Fonzie
Scott Howell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Michael Babcock, owner of
http://gwhosting.net
Check out my blog at:
http://feeds.feedburner.com/GwNetworks
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Scott Howell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Scott Howell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
