Hi Stephen,
No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that the scope of what is
apparently being attempted (precisely as stated) cannot be constrained in a
manner that is objective or inline with the rest of the inclusionary
aspects of the policy.
It's already dangerous ground to start enumerating forbidden behaviors.
You get the exact problem with Old Testament "thou shall nots". It's
arguably easier to enforce or understand it in the context of a
Django-relevant forum but it's a real slippery slope to then try to apply
it universally. Your second paragraph are excellent examples of just how
impossible it is to make such a policy useful and inline with it's original
(presumable but not always) intent.
Better to have a code of conduct that describes how to behave in an
affirmative fashion in the context of Django interactions than to attempt
to create a speech and behavior code which lists banned actions. The
enforcement document you pointed out in your following post is exactly the
kind of absurd hubris that these things inevitably devolve to. Check this
out: "If the incident involves physical danger, any member of the working
group may -- and should -- act unilaterally to protect safety." The fact
that anyone thought it necessary to have to include this content in a
policy statement just goes to show how far out these things actually do get
interpreted.
I'm frankly embarrassed for the Django community to have such nonsense
as official policy. Is there an actual problem that needs solving here? Do
have have some level of incidents that actually violate common sense
policies of individual freedom and personal responsibility that we need a
conduct code of this far reaching scope? If so I haven't seen it but I am
prepared to be educated otherwise.
Hope that clarifies my concerns and thanx for your response.
-- Ben Scherrey
On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 2:30 PM, Stephen Burrows <stephen.r.burr...@gmail.com
> wrote:
> Ben,
>
> Just to clarify, it sounds like what you're saying is the following: If
> there were a member of the django community who (may this never be the
> case) was harassing members of the django community, but limited their
> harassment to non-django-specific forums, you would want it to not affect
> their participation in django spaces.
>
> Is that correct? If so, is that a blanket statement or does it depend in
> your mind what exactly they've done? For example, what if they had a single
> hateful tweet? What if they had five? What if they orchestrated a
> harassment campaign that drove someone from their home?
>
> Where would you draw the line?
>
> I would also like to point out that the code of conduct doesn't seem to
> contain any statements about how it's enforced. Generally speaking,
> policies like this operate with a certain number of warnings, followed by
> escalation if that doesn't stick - except in extreme cases. It even says
> explicitly *in* the policy:
>
> Don’t forget that it is human to err and blaming each other doesn’t get us
>> anywhere, rather offer to help resolving issues and to help learn from
>> mistakes.
>
>
> I understand that you're concerned about the application of the policy,
> but it seems like you're (perhaps unintentionally) exaggerating the scope
> and purpose of the policy to support your point.
>
> --Stephen
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 12:16 AM, Benjamin Scherrey <proteus...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I thought I made my objections pretty clear in my original email but I'll
>> attempt to be more pedantic about it now. The specific language in the PR
>> 86 is:
>>
>> "In addition, violations of this code outside these spaces may affect a
>> person's ability to participate within them." for both faq.html and
>> index.html.
>>
>> I disagree with your assertion "that only makes explicit something that
>> was already the case" because that's a) not how I read it and b) completely
>> impossible to reasonably enforce or expect. I hope that what is occurring is
>> simply a matter of "I don't think it means what you think it means" but
>> what you're really saying here is that all people on this planet must
>> comply with our "code of conduct" at all times in all places or risk being
>> removed from our community - right after, mind you ironically, claiming to
>> support an encourage the participation of all individuals. So what is this
>> code of conduct that we're imposing on all of humanity for the salvation of
>> the world? Fortunately there is, literally, a list:
>>
>> <ul>
>> <li>Violent threats or language directed against another person.</li>
>> <li>Sexist, racist, or otherwise discriminatory jokes and
>> language.</li>
>> <li>Posting sexually explicit or violent material.</li>
>> <li>Posting (or threatening to post) other people's personally
>> identifying information ("doxing").</li>
>> <li>Personal insults, especially those using racist or sexist
>> terms.</li>
>> <li>Unwelcome sexual attention.</li>
>> <li>Advocating for, or encouraging, any of the above behavior.</li>
>> <li>Repeated harassment of others. In general, if someone asks you to
>> stop, then stop.</li>
>> </ul>
>>
>> So lets see... anyone who has done any of the following completely
>> outside the context of the Django community or forums is now not welcome to
>> participate:
>>
>> 1) Ever threatened to or actually spank their children.
>> 2) Ever used violence or threat there-of to defend another person from
>> same.
>> 3) Ever posted a naked or somewhat explicit picture of themselves or
>> others in a private message to another person or in a forum, such as a
>> photo site like flickr.
>> 4) Dox'd a person who is clearly engaging in criminal activity under a
>> pretense of anonymity.
>> 5) Ever repeated a joke with sexual or racial content.
>> 6) Ever asked someone out or complemented another person on their looks
>> who didn't want it.
>> 7) Said it's ok for someone to do any of the above.
>> 8) Said or did it twice.
>>
>> Seriously?!?! This *is* really what you're saying. (BTW - I've done all
>> of the above at one time or another so ban me now.)
>>
>> Of course some of these (but not all - and it depends a lot about whom)
>> may seem outrageous but they are true to the letter of the code of conduct.
>> I agree these things probably don't belong in the context of a Django
>> discussion or group but I do not believe you can enforce elimination this
>> conduct outside of same. And - then there's just the ability to agree to
>> disagree. One can very credibly argue that many religions or political
>> philosophies are racist, sexist, etc. Are all practicing members of same
>> now banned from participation in Django? This RP language says yes.
>>
>> Now that I have, again, been responsive to your dismissal of my
>> objections, please do me the courtesy of re-reading my original (and this)
>> email and attempt to be responsive to it's content.
>>
>> thank you,
>>
>> -- Ben Scherrey
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 3:04 AM, Daniele Procida <dani...@vurt.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 8, 2014, Benjamin Scherrey <proteus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Nothing you've written disagrees with what I said, nor do you
>>> address
>>> >the core concern I bring up about the "change of substance" which is
>>> chock
>>> >full of opportunities for the law of unintended consequences to come up
>>> and
>>> >bite us all.
>>>
>>> What in your opinion is (or was) the "change of substance" in <
>>> https://github.com/django/djangoproject.com/pull/86>?
>>>
>>> I didn't see any but a very minor one, that only makes explicit
>>> something that was already the case.
>>>
>>> >Re-reading the existing documents, I find that this language
>>> >introduces an entirely different tone to the language of these policies
>>> >and, again, implies some dangerous precedents beyond what the writers
>>> may
>>> >intend.
>>>
>>> Which language in pull request 86?
>>>
>>> Daniele
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Chief Systems Architect Proteus Technologies <http://proteus-tech.com>
>> Chief Fan Biggest Fan Productions <http://biggestfan.net>
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