Jaromil <[email protected]> escribió:
dear Noel, I'm happy that you are back, we really miss DWN, but I'm also sorry to contradict you on this one.
I like you contradicting me. Maybe it is not so big contradiction. About DWN, I've had bad days in the personal (and I'm still having) so maybe writing to the list is all I can do for now. But I'm not dead!
On Tue, 05 May 2015, Noel Torres wrote:As a resume: If you want a systemd-free system, Devuan is your distribution, and will always be. But if you want a system designed to be unable to run systemd, please leave us. This is not the place for such an anti-freedom POV.perhaps we could say it was to simplify the transition, but in operating on packages so far we have removed systemd and the possibility to run it on Devuan, which is now as far as that of running sysvinit on Debian for normal users. This is more of a consequence of how Debian imposed systemd than a deliberate choice from our side. I personally agree with your line about init-freedom, but less agree with the line of telling people this is not their place especially if they look for a systemd-free system for whatever reason they have.
I agree on your view of the situation and the causes that lead to it, but still think that freedom whould be what leads us. If we must pay the price to being unable to support systemd, that's ok, because it is teh price for the bigger Good of user freedom, but forbidding our users to have such an option as a principle is a completely different thing.
At the inception of Devuan we have analysed the tradeoff of keeping systemd optional and thought it was too much work in a direction we weren't interested: we recommend Debian as the system of choice for those wanting to have systemd crippl*cough*cough*manage their computers.
I agree, but that still does not invalidate my main point! This is an issue on feasability, not on principles.
As simple as this, the result is that there is no option to have systemd in Devuan now and the simpliest way to have it would be anyway to use Debian. I'm not sure it will be ever a priority to get systemd back as
Having it is not a priority for me, either. But the philosophical point of rejecting it by itself and thus consciously removing freedom from our users for no good technical/workforce/feasability reason is an idea I'm not comfortable with.
optional for Devuan. Perhaps init-freedom is really realized by a plurality of distributions and if there is a merit for Devan is still that of preserving this freedom by providing an OS that is open to every init system *but systemd* since the latter does exclude anyone else by an enormous network of dependencies. In the future we'll invest efforts
Maybe I'm a dreamer, but I follow Lennon on this. I Imagine a world where systemd is optional (probably against its own core developers wishes), and can be installed or deinstalled as any other init system.
in supporting sysvinit and more init systems our there (OpenRC, DMD etc.) thus we'll be a bit more "universal" than Debian.
We will be, soon!
Again personally I think that is an arrogant move today for any OS to declare itself "universal" as init-freedom and more freedom in the future is really realized by a plurality of distributions, a lesson we learn from this fork perhaps.
Wise words
ciao
Saludos Noel er Envite
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