It needs to be pointed out that PHD and MS advisors in general are not culprits. Most of them I have known are interested in helping students realize a future as a professor, researcher, or whatever direction it is that a student is pursuing. The concerns many are voicing here are representative of a larger problem that transcends even the subject matter and job setting. The employment situation for most disciplines, from car mechanic to physicist is largely in the tank. Further, outside of a short period surrounding the turn of the century when the Y2K bug sucked tons of folks off the job market and fueled the economy, it has stunk it up for a long tiem. Essentially, I argue that the job market has been fairly flat in America since the Vietnam War. The small punctuations of prosperity were largely coincidence in connection with odd occurrences like Y2K and largely, nothing has been done in the US to help with this problem. Sometimes, we as academics forget that its not just us trying to find jobs. Its every sector, except for politicians. I'ld say, politics is the place to be for job security. You are guaranteed 2 years as a rep, 4 yrs as a president, 6 yrs as a senator so long as you don't do something demanding impeachment, and even then you might not be removed. Something to think about.
Malcolm On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 1:21 PM, Karen Weber <karen.lucille.we...@gmail.com>wrote: > To contribute to the conversation of the difficulty of obtaining > non-academic employment, I offer an abridged version of my personal > experience. > > I have over 11 years experience as a field biologist, mainly working as a > seasonal tech doing field work for universities, graduate students and > government agencies. I went to grad school for a master's degree because I > was tired of just being the grunt labor and wanted to be involved in the > rest of the process. Since getting my master's in Aug 2010, I have gone > back to seasonal work for 2 field seasons, been a project hire biologist > for a consulting company for 1.5 years, and been largely unemployed for the > remaining 1.5 years. I am currently on the payroll as an on-call biologist > at 6, yes 6, different consulting companies and 1 national park. I have > applied to upwards of 100 positions throughout the west with government > agencies, non-profits and consulting companies. > > In my experience, with the plethora of biologists to chose from, > environmental consulting companies are hiring less permanent, full-time > biologists for their staff and instead stocking up on on-call biologists > since they don't have to provide benefits to them and those positions will > always be billable to a client (no overhead costs). When there is a dearth > of jobs in one arena, this transfers over to other employers in the same > field. > > > On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 6:31 AM, Christopher Blair <blair....@gmail.com > >wrote: > > > There are obviously non-academic jobs for people, with the quantities and > > opportunities depending on the field in which the PhD was obtained. > > However, people need to realize that it is usually just as difficult, if > > not more so, to get some of these non-academic jobs as it is a tt job. > For > > example, many environmental consulting firms only require a BS or MS > > degree. However, nearly all require previous consulting experience and > > substantial familiarity with state and federal regulations. These are NOT > > skills we are likely to acquire when pursuing a PhD in the life sciences. > > Second, in contrast to tt academic jobs, many companies tend to hire > > locally. Why hire a PhD from out of state and pay them more versus hire > > someone locally with a BS who has previous consulting experience? State > and > > federal jobs can also be just as competitive as tt jobs. I recently > applied > > for a curator position at the Smithsonian and am guessing that they > > received >500 applications. > > > > In sum, there are other opportunities for PhDs besides academia, but we > > cannot kid ourselves into thinking that pursing alternate careers will be > > much easier. > > > > Chris > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 9:00 AM, Judith S. Weis < > > jw...@andromeda.rutgers.edu > > > wrote: > > > > > The existence of many good and rewarding jobs outside academia - in > > > federal agencies (EPA, NOAA, FWS, USGS, FDA etc.) as well as in state > > > agencies, the private sector (e.g. consulting firms) and non-profits > > > (environmental groups) or for those who love teaching, teaching in K-12 > > > seems to be ignored in this discussion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we agree that jobs for ecologists are resource limited, and > > > > If we agree that resources are not increasing, > > > > then it follows that ecologists who wish to produce intellectual > > > offspring > > > > (MS and PhD) should produce such offspring in a way that maximizes > the > > > > probability that they will be represented in the next generation's > > career > > > > 'gene pool'. > > > > > > > > If ecologists believe the current job market is competitive, they > > should > > > > reproduce like albatrosses, maximizing their investment in a very few > > > > highly competitive offspring with a wide array of attractive skills > > > > (K-slection). > > > > If they believe the current job market is essentially a crap shoot, > > then > > > > they should spawn like salmon, investing little or nothing, with > > > > subsequent > > > > massive mortality, and only a few offspring surviving (r-selection) > > > > > > > > The present situation seems to be more salmonid in an albatross > > > > environment > > > > with considerable human carnage. What can be done? > > > > > > > > Individuals can look into other fields but that means giving up a > dream > > > > and > > > > acquiring more debt if they go back to school to retrain. If they > stay, > > > > they risk remaining on the outside of academic/professional leks, > > > > opportunistically exploiting irregular and marginal rewards. They can > > > > teach, becoming contingent faculty, a growing national scandal where > > > > untenured faculty with precarious teaching positions may rely on food > > > > stamps to get by. If they have a large debt from student loans, they > > will > > > > end up taking just about any job that allows them to make their > monthly > > > > repayments. > > > > > > > > The long term solution is a ZPG for ecologists: professors should > > > > essentially only reproduce themselves. Some may reply that they need > > > > 'excess' grad students as teaching assistants. In reality these > > positions > > > > could be filled and better taught by what are now contingent faculty. > > > Make > > > > these better paid, give them a heavier load than one or two classes a > > > > semester and provide five-year contracts that would give them with > more > > > > security. Faculty should not admit grad students unless they can be > > > fully > > > > supported by fellowships. > > > > > > > > With fewer degrees each year, agencies might consider increasing the > > > > number > > > > of independent post docs that are long enough to be useful (5 years?) > > to > > > > allow people to develop. Funders should be prepared, if they fund > > > projects > > > > with interns, to fund them at a living wage. Funding agencies should > > also > > > > support programs that support those in overcrowded fields who wish to > > > > retrain for teaching or health fields. We make a big point of wanting > > > more > > > > people to enter the STEM fields, maybe we need to think more about > how > > to > > > > retain them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > David Duffy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 10:57 AM, David L. McNeely <mcnee...@cox.net> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> ---- Kevin Klein <kkl...@mail.ic.edu> wrote: > > > >> > I haven't been able to follow the entire thread but one thing I > draw > > > >> from > > > >> > what I have read is that it is incumbent on those of us who work > > with > > > >> > students at all stages in their academic careers to also advise > them > > > >> to > > > >> > consider the job market in their chosen disciplines. In so doing, > > > >> they > > > >> > make more informed decision and they study with eyes open wide on > > the > > > >> > possibilities open to them at the next stage in their life and > > career > > > >> > journey. Much easier said than done. It reminds me of two PhD > > > >> markets > > > >> in > > > >> > recent years. One, where hundreds of applicants vied for the > > reported > > > >> 2 > > > >> or > > > >> > 3 job openings that year and second the hundreds of positions open > > for > > > >> the > > > >> > 2 or 3 PhD candidates graduating each year. Hopefully we advise > our > > > >> > students of the job market realities. One place a student might > > look > > > >> for > > > >> > this information can be found here. > > > >> > http://www.bls.gov/ooh/occupation-finder.htm > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> Hmmm.... . I was an academic biologist for 35+ years, after the > time > > > >> spent preparing. I cannot recall a time when there were "hundreds > of > > > >> positions open for 2 or 3 Ph.D. candidates graduating each year." I > > do > > > >> recall a good many times when the opposite was true. > > > >> > > > >> David McNeely > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Pacific Cooperative Studies Unit > > > > Botany > > > > University of Hawaii > > > > 3190 Maile Way > > > > Honolulu Hawaii 96822 USA > > > > 1-808-956-8218 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Christopher Blair, Ph.D. > > Postdoctoral Associate > > Department of Biology > > Duke University, Box 90338 > > BioSci 130 Science Drive > > Durham, NC 27708 > > ph: 919-613-8727 > > christopher.bl...@duke.edu <peter.lar...@duke.edu> > > <http://individual.utoronto.ca/chrisblair/index.html> > > Website: https://sites.google.com/site/christopherblairphd/home > > > > > > -- > Karen Weber > 843-991-5768 > > "Go confidently in the direction of your dreams. Live the life you have > imagined." > -Henry David Thoreau > -- Malcolm L. McCallum Department of Environmental Studies University of Illinois at Springfield Managing Editor, Herpetological Conservation and Biology "Nothing is more priceless and worthy of preservation than the rich array of animal life with which our country has been blessed. It is a many-faceted treasure, of value to scholars, scientists, and nature lovers alike, and it forms a vital part of the heritage we all share as Americans." -President Richard Nixon upon signing the Endangered Species Act of 1973 into law. "Peer pressure is designed to contain anyone with a sense of drive" - Allan Nation 1880's: "There's lots of good fish in the sea" W.S. Gilbert 1990's: Many fish stocks depleted due to overfishing, habitat loss, and pollution. 2000: Marine reserves, ecosystem restoration, and pollution reduction MAY help restore populations. 2022: Soylent Green is People! 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