YES, FOR THE CONSUMER MARKET, THIS IS LIKE THE UNLISTED CHRISTMAS TREE LIGHTS INVASION EACH YEAR.
-----Original Message----- From: Jacob Schanker [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 11:34 AM To: Nikolassy, Anton; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: Re: NEC Question Anton: Yes, I think you have summed it up nicely. Actually, I have found it very helpful, both for myself and for explaining to others, to consider the sociological background leading to regulations in the US and in Europe. Basically, the US, as I see it for this purpose, is a wild-west capitalist society. Anything goes and the market rules, unless we are told otherwise. The government protecting us from ourselves is a relatively recent development. Europe tends to paternalism and socialism. Government sets the rules and the rules protect the people. Maybe this stems from a history of monarchy and dictatorships. Anyways, the regulation writing business in Europe must certainly represent a significant part of the Gross National Product in EU countries. So, we have examples like EU requiring immunity testing/declaration of products before they are marketed. A consumer has a right to expect that the radio receiver or stereo amplifier or whatever they purchase will be reasonably immune from interference and disruption by unwanted signals. In the US, on the other hand, the FCC makes no requirements for immunity, only for emissions. Here, the marketplace is supposed to operate to eliminate "faulty" products which have poor immunity. Theory is that consumers will not buy these things. The trouble is that consumers DO buy these things, and that causes endless problems for people (like me) who are involved with radio/TV broadcasting, or other wireless transmitters. Put another way, in the US we have the freedom to buy crap and then complain about it. Back to topic: It has been accurately pointed out that employers/businesses have an obligation, under Federal Law, to use listed products for the safety of their workers. However, just to reiterate, equipment manufacturers have no legal obligation to list products before selling. Again, we see the marketplace. Why would a business buy anything other than a listed product? (The answer is generally ignorance of the requirement). Of course, I could be wrong. Regards, Jack Jacob Z. Schanker, P.E. 65 Crandon Way Rochester, NY 14618 Phone: 716 442 3909 Fax: 716 442 2182 [email protected] ----- Original Message ----- From: Nikolassy, Anton <[email protected]> To: 'Jacob Schanker' <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 10:25 AM Subject: RE: NEC Question | This is a very interesting conversation. Basically you are saying that this | is America. Your allowed to be as liable as you want to be. | | Tony Nikolassy | FMRC | | -----Original Message----- | From: Jacob Schanker [mailto:[email protected]] | Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 4:38 PM | To: [email protected]; [email protected]; | [email protected] | Subject: Re: NEC Question | | | | Mike: | | There is no Federal requirement for the manufacturer to have | equipment listed or NRTL approved. The requirements are set by | localities, as Richard Woods clearly points out. | | I can understand that in some companies, the "powers-that-be" | have little patience with the time and expense of obtaining a | listing. The delay in hitting the market is often more costly | than the approval process itself. | | I say TOUGH. They should have allowed for that in the original | project plan and schedule. There was one, wasn't there? | | If you are having a problem, just ask marketing to agree to | exclude the areas that Richard enumerated from their sales areas. | If it's OK to exclude LA, etc. etc., than listing isn't needed, | legally. | | But the competition may be listing, so not doing so puts you at a | disadvantage. | | I have asked managers to imagine sitting on the witness stand at | a product liability trial, and trying to answer the question, why | didn't you get safety approval from an NRTL? | | When the implications of shortcuts are driven home, most people | see the light. Those that don't need to stick their fingers in an | unlisted light socket. | | Rant concluded, best regards, | | Jack | | Jacob Z. Schanker, P.E. | 65 Crandon Way | Rochester, NY 14618 | Phone: 716 442 3909 | Fax: 716 442 2182 | [email protected] | | ----- Original Message ----- | From: <[email protected]> | To: <[email protected]> | Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 12:23 PM | Subject: RE: NEC Question | | | | | | Mike, regardless of what the NEC says, and it is not very clear | in this | | regard, it is the state, county and city electrical codes and | other local | | regulations that apply. Many jurisdictions have deviations from | the NEC | | and/or have other regulations that require electrical equipment | sold to the | | general public be Listed. I know of the following locations: | Virginia, North | | Carolina, Los Angeles, Counties of Los Angeles and Orange, and | San | | Francisco. I have also heard but cannot confirm that other | locations include | | Oregon, Washington, New York city and Chicago. | | | | Richard Woods | | Sensormatic Electronics | | | | | | -----Original Message----- | | From: Mike Morrow [mailto:[email protected]] | | Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 11:52 AM | | To: EMC Society | | Subject: NEC Question | | | | | | | | Can someone point me to a section in the NEC that says a piece | of | | RESIDENTIAL computer equipment must be "listed" (NEC | definition). Article | | 645 which requires a "listed" piece of equipment appears to | apply to a | | computer room and not a residence. | | | | Basically I've been asked where its says a piece of computer | equipment must | | listed/approved by a NRTL. I'm ignoring the obvious liability | implications | | should someone get injured for the purposes of this question.. | | | | Any help is appreciated. | | | | Mike Morrow | | Senior Compliance Engineer | | Ucentric Systems, LLC | | 978-823-8166 | | [email protected] | | | | | | ------------------------------------------- | | This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety | | Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. | | | | Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ | | | | To cancel your subscription, send mail to: | | [email protected] | | with the single line: | | unsubscribe emc-pstc | | | | For help, send mail to the list administrators: | | Michael Garretson: [email protected] | | Dave Heald [email protected] | | | | For policy questions, send mail to: | | Richard Nute: [email protected] | | Jim Bacher: [email protected] | | | | All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web | at: | | No longer online until our new server is brought online and | the old | | messages are imported into the new server. | | | | ------------------------------------------- | | This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety | | Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. | | | | Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ | | | | To cancel your subscription, send mail to: | | [email protected] | | with the single line: | | unsubscribe emc-pstc | | | | For help, send mail to the list administrators: | | Michael Garretson: [email protected] | | Dave Heald [email protected] | | | | For policy questions, send mail to: | | Richard Nute: [email protected] | | Jim Bacher: [email protected] | | | | All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web | at: | | No longer online until our new server is brought online and | the old messages are imported into the new server. | | | | | ------------------------------------------- | This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety | Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. | | Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ | | To cancel your subscription, send mail to: | [email protected] | with the single line: | unsubscribe emc-pstc | | For help, send mail to the list administrators: | Michael Garretson: [email protected] | Dave Heald [email protected] | | For policy questions, send mail to: | Richard Nute: [email protected] | Jim Bacher: [email protected] | | All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: | No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old | messages are imported into the new server. | ------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: [email protected] with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson: [email protected] Dave Heald [email protected] For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: [email protected] Jim Bacher: [email protected] All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
