Brian, et al,
My apologies for not following up in enuf detail to determine
that the power-cord in only a UR Recognized component, not a fully UL Listed
unit (xxxx2 for components and has Conditions of Acceptability).
:>) br, Pete
Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant
PO Box 23427
Tigard, ORe 97281-3427
503/452-1201
<mailto:[email protected]> [email protected]
From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, October 9, 2017 12:14 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13
This looks like a strange one. I’d be verifying the actual UL
certificate/listing on that stayonline cord. It’s not unusual to find a
manufacturer rating that is broader that the NRTL rating. The NRTLs typically
rate adapter cords for temporary non-continuous use but this appears to be a
power cord, not adapter cord. Again, this would be clear on the actual UL
certificate. 60320 C13/C14 are typically only NRTL rated for 10A, 15A in
Europe making it even more strange.
The stayonline drawing shows a UL file #E152635 for the cord set. That file
does indicate 15A/125V rating for 14AWG. However, it’s of UL guide ELBZ2 which
states:
The devices covered under this category are incomplete in certain
constructional features or restricted in performance capabilities and are
intended for use as components of complete equipment submitted for
investigation rather than for direct separate installation in the field. THE
FINAL ACCEPTANCE OF THE COMPONENT IS DEPENDENT UPON ITS INSTALLATION AND USE IN
COMPLETE EQUIPMENT SUBMITTED TO UL.
-Dave
From: John Woodgate [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 2:27 PM
To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13
It seems to me that this troublesome de-rating is due for an urgent review. Is
it still really justified, since it causes all these anomalies and
uncertainties?
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk <http://www.woodjohn.uk>
Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2017-10-09 19:23, Pete Perkins wrote:
Brian, et al,
The answer to your question is: It depends.
It depends upon who has the place to authorize its use for such
a condition.
Ted E sez that it is not acceptable and give his reasoning.
The UL/cUL power-cord folks believe that it is acceptable by the marking; some
test houses would accept this cert without question so the usage in a product
would seem acceptable.
Who is the Supreme Arbitor on this? It seems that the AHJ
Inspector has the last word on this. Wot’s the chances that the product with
this power-cord will be field inspected in the application and accepted?
Wot’s your company business risk level on an issue such as
this?
:>) br, Pete
Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant
PO Box 23427
Tigard, ORe 97281-3427
503/452-1201
<mailto:[email protected]> [email protected]
From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, October 9, 2017 11:01 AM
To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13
https://www.stayonline.com/detail.aspx?id=11844
The power cord above is as I described in my original email. It too is UL/cUL
listed. It is listed as a 15 amp power cord powered by a 20 amp branch circuit
and 18 amp conductor (cordage). Can this power cord power a device rated 15
amps? If not, why not?
Thanks,
Brian
From: Pete Perkins [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 1:57 PM
To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13
Brian, et al,
Oh yes, strange combinations… The referenced combo is safety
certified on the mfgrs spec sheet; really strange, wot was the test lab
thinking?. Wot kind of a product would appear with a 50A/125V/250V plug on it
such that one would need an adapter to use it on a 15A/120V circuit? Would an
Electrical Inspector really accept such? It would really raise a lot of
questions; wouldn’t you like to be a ‘mouse-in-the-corner’ listening to such.
:>) br, Pete
Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant
PO Box 23427
Tigard, ORe 97281-3427
503/452-1201
<mailto:[email protected]> [email protected]
From: Ted Eckert [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, October 9, 2017 9:24 AM
To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13
Hello Brian,
This falls under the issue of “continuous” vs. “non-continuous” loads. NFPA 70,
section 210.19 is one of the clauses that sets the requirement for the 80%
derating. However, it states: “Where a branch circuit supplies continuous loads
or any combination of continuous and noncontinuous loads, the minimum
branch-circuit conductor size shall have an allowable ampacity not less than
the noncontinuous load plus 125 percent of the continuous load.”
“Continuous” is a load intended to be used for 3 hours or more. A hairdryer or
microwave are not “continuous”. (If they are, you either have too many dogs and
need to stop walking them in the rain or you like cooking food until it tastes
like charcoal.)
The problem is that a detachable cord with an appliance coupler could be used
with any product. Unless it has a built-in timer, you have no way of
guaranteeing that it won’t be used with a product that draws current for less
than 3 hours. There may be “non-continuous” loads with an appliance coupler and
rated for 15 A. As such, I would expect such a detachable cord to need to be
rated for at least 15 A.
A cord with a NEMA 5-20P would then be prohibited from having a C13 connector
at the other end. It would need a C19 instead.
That being said, for some specialty industries, you can find some strange
combinations of plugs and receptacles.
<http://www.marinco.com/en/s15-504> http://www.marinco.com/en/s15-504
Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation
The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my
employer.
From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, October 9, 2017 8:31 AM
To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13
It is my understanding that according to the US National Electric Code, 15 amp
receptacle are derated to 12 amps max., and 20 amp receptacles are derated to
16 amps.
IEC 60320 C13 connectors are rated 15 amps in North America. Do I derate them
as well or can I draw 15 amps continuous from the C13 connector?
So here is the big question:
If I have a power cord with a NEMA-5-20P at one end, IEC 60320 C13 at the other
end, and 14awg cordage (rated 18A), can I use/ship this power cord with a
product rated 15 amps?
Thanks to all.
The Other Brian
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