My test method for this test has always been that each port that exits the EUT gets an individual test.
If in this case the “system” has multiple power cords exiting the cabinet, then the number of ports to be tested equals the number of cords. If they are combined within the system and only one cord exits the cabinet then only one test is required. This opinion is in part based on my interpretation of the text found in the informative Annex B section B.5 There are caveats to this of course. · If there are multiple power cords exiting the EUT but some or all of these cords power identical devices then only one of the identical devices need be tested · If any of the devices within the system are sold separately (and they have an intrinsic function ) or if the system can exist in various configurations of devices then the devices must pass on their own. · If the system is just a collection of devices set up to perform a function without a some sort of cabinet or rack to hold them, then that is not a true system and the individual devices must pass on their own Quite apart from this though, experience has taught me that ignoring a known weakness found at the design stage will often bite you in the field. Kind regards Kevin From: John Woodgate [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2019 2:14 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PSES] IEC 61000-4-5 Surge Testing Single plug vs. multiple plug system I feel sure that "When testing line to ground, the lines are tested singly in sequence, if there is no other specification." is about 3-phase supplies, not multiple mains leads. Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.woodjohn.uk&data=02%7C01%7Ckevin.3.harris%40jci.com%7C8af3ba9614864f0a7f3508d6714b0cd3%7Ca1f1e2147ded45b681a19e8ae3459641%7C0%7C0%7C636820964498062051&sdata=JA%2FPs599IrNOQ9MB0Ql7ysovvb9F1Fz021fIdccNo7c%3D&reserved=0> Rayleigh, Essex UK On 2019-01-03 01:15, John Howe wrote: IEC 61000-4-5 (2005) does cover this and implies in section 8.3 (page 38 in my copy): "In the case of several identical circuits, representative measurements (plural) on a selected number of circuits may be sufficient. " and further down: "When testing line to ground, the lines are tested singly in sequence, if there is no other specification." From testing experience the only out we had for a client to test them all together (usually because they did not want to pay for individual testing) was if they were designed to be plugged into the same circuit breaker - which kind of defeats the purpose of having multiple cords. If you think about it if the cords are plugged into different circuits then the surge path to the individual cords can be different and you should not model it as equal on all cords - it could be out of phase as much as 180 degrees giving twice the surge across 2 cords. So keeping the other plugs at normal while the one cord is tested seems to be good practice. My opinions only and not necessarily those of the company I work for.... On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 3:35 PM John Woodgate <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Should you be testing a 'system' as a whole anyway? My take on this is that if several pieces of equipment are invoiced together with a single price for the lot, that is a system and all must be tested together. But if the pieces are invoiced separately (so that other equipment might be substituted for some in another instance), that is not a system and the pieces should be tested separately. The authors of 61000-4-5 and 61326-x might well not have addressed the case of multiple power cords. The test house 'advice' seems reasonable, but it is not official and another test house might offer other advice. Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.woodjohn.uk&data=02%7C01%7Ckevin.3.harris%40jci.com%7C8af3ba9614864f0a7f3508d6714b0cd3%7Ca1f1e2147ded45b681a19e8ae3459641%7C0%7C0%7C636820964498062051&sdata=JA%2FPs599IrNOQ9MB0Ql7ysovvb9F1Fz021fIdccNo7c%3D&reserved=0> Rayleigh, Essex UK On 2019-01-02 22:15, Larry K. Stillings wrote: All, I received the following email from a customer today via their customer addressing our application of surge testing. We are testing laboratory equipment per IEC/EN 61326-1 and IEC/EN 61326-2-6 and specifically are having failures with respect to surge on a system that has multiple power cords. We are testing one power cord at a time. Here are their comments we have never tested a system comprised of multiple instruments in this way before. i.e. applying surge to one unit at a time – we have always, with agreement from our customers, applied surge (and in fact all tests) to all of the units plugged into e.g. a mains distribution block all at the same time. Especially for surge, it seems unlikely that in the real world any real surge on the mains supply would not affect all things in a system as it is very likely they are all plugged into the same mains circuit in e.g a particular room. To further bolster this, we have made comment to customers in the past that it could be noted in the manual to ensure this is the case. By applying surge to all units at the same time, we maintain all of their supply voltages at the same level. I can see how, by applying a surge to a single part of the wider system, communications issues could occur as suddenly the points of reference (i.e. reference voltages) for different parts of the system could be pulled away from each other by the surge. Testing a system by applying the tests to all at once, rather than a single item at a time, isn’t necessarily an “easy way out“ either. For other tests e.g. conducted emissions, where noise transmitted from the unit under test back onto the mains supply is measured, passing is made more difficult by measuring all units at once. Where in this case one at a time would be much more favourable. Our test house has always advised that we can choose, either all tests one at a time, or all tests applied to all through a mains block, but we cannot mix and match between different sections for the conducted EMC tests. I know this brings up all sorts of questions, however I would like to focus on the surge testing at the moment. I am pretty sure at least one of the standards says conducted emissions shall be tested on each port individually, but we don’t need to go there right now ;-) Thoughts when you get responses like this? Larry K. Stillings Compliance Worldwide, Inc. Test Locally, Sell Globally and Launch Your Products Around the World! FCC - Wireless - Telecom - CE Marking - International Approvals - Product Safety 357 Main Street Sandown, NH 03873 (603) 887 3903 Fax 887-6445 www.complianceworldwide.com<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.complianceworldwide.com&data=02%7C01%7Ckevin.3.harris%40jci.com%7C8af3ba9614864f0a7f3508d6714b0cd3%7Ca1f1e2147ded45b681a19e8ae3459641%7C0%7C0%7C636820964498072060&sdata=6gvqzU1sTWc6tkfTyeFrl%2BwTBwXPp7vSy14pFAAWcCQ%3D&reserved=0> Privileged/Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message (or responsible for delivery of the message to such person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email. Please advise immediately if you or your employer do not consent to Internet email for messages of this kind. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message that do not relate to the official business of my firm shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by it. - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Femc-pstc.html&data=02%7C01%7Ckevin.3.harris%40jci.com%7C8af3ba9614864f0a7f3508d6714b0cd3%7Ca1f1e2147ded45b681a19e8ae3459641%7C0%7C0%7C636820964498082064&sdata=6cznZDVQbKkZcZMpMXAGXYUjtkhv8qK3iWaA%2FW%2FhVe4%3D&reserved=0> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fproduct-compliance.oc.ieee.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Ckevin.3.harris%40jci.com%7C8af3ba9614864f0a7f3508d6714b0cd3%7Ca1f1e2147ded45b681a19e8ae3459641%7C0%7C0%7C636820964498082064&sdata=lji4v3Hm5X4r%2FKF9zEFGml0pPVXhsqNb7FC2B8XX9jw%3D&reserved=0> can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Ckevin.3.harris%40jci.com%7C8af3ba9614864f0a7f3508d6714b0cd3%7Ca1f1e2147ded45b681a19e8ae3459641%7C0%7C0%7C636820964498092072&sdata=eKmJm%2F7S1gFtTookMM%2FKFdR%2FsA0zAd0j%2BpBxXxT9bNU%3D&reserved=0> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Flist.html&data=02%7C01%7Ckevin.3.harris%40jci.com%7C8af3ba9614864f0a7f3508d6714b0cd3%7Ca1f1e2147ded45b681a19e8ae3459641%7C0%7C0%7C636820964498092072&sdata=Jq3HD1pM8podzA%2Fl2YknWjITpwSAyLXQQU4A7Tede78%3D&reserved=0> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Flistrules.html&data=02%7C01%7Ckevin.3.harris%40jci.com%7C8af3ba9614864f0a7f3508d6714b0cd3%7Ca1f1e2147ded45b681a19e8ae3459641%7C0%7C0%7C636820964498102084&sdata=fbjUDxEW1PnYvqrK8FfDowUELYzc35X6kyQSOmkvxmc%3D&reserved=0> For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Mike Cantwell <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> David Heald <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Femc-pstc.html&data=02%7C01%7Ckevin.3.harris%40jci.com%7C8af3ba9614864f0a7f3508d6714b0cd3%7Ca1f1e2147ded45b681a19e8ae3459641%7C0%7C0%7C636820964498112088&sdata=Hg%2FDnw5GvGgRZJ0D6ImZvtEFlL7pit5sTPSvlTCgAXA%3D&reserved=0> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fproduct-compliance.oc.ieee.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Ckevin.3.harris%40jci.com%7C8af3ba9614864f0a7f3508d6714b0cd3%7Ca1f1e2147ded45b681a19e8ae3459641%7C0%7C0%7C636820964498112088&sdata=jusv2FJRMF%2BrxynMPP62VCUfkkpvZ1yetInjBM%2FqZQU%3D&reserved=0> can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Ckevin.3.harris%40jci.com%7C8af3ba9614864f0a7f3508d6714b0cd3%7Ca1f1e2147ded45b681a19e8ae3459641%7C0%7C0%7C636820964498122096&sdata=oM0TIXo8Wh7EhR2p6rc3a9pQdgfmkqT7GB1T%2BM6NNHA%3D&reserved=0> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Flist.html&data=02%7C01%7Ckevin.3.harris%40jci.com%7C8af3ba9614864f0a7f3508d6714b0cd3%7Ca1f1e2147ded45b681a19e8ae3459641%7C0%7C0%7C636820964498122096&sdata=tpcMBQZ0smP7AIATAb8pJSZaeuirm6jhd7%2FGHVxEdT8%3D&reserved=0> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Flistrules.html&data=02%7C01%7Ckevin.3.harris%40jci.com%7C8af3ba9614864f0a7f3508d6714b0cd3%7Ca1f1e2147ded45b681a19e8ae3459641%7C0%7C0%7C636820964498132109&sdata=5Q84Ts9UGqq7PFF1WIpAZo9LuFTTLj9bXT%2FqQ1few0Q%3D&reserved=0> For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Mike Cantwell <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> David Heald <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> -- [https://docs.google.com/a/micomlabs.com/uc?id=0B1x_7fU3QS24emNtelZtX0JCR1hmVGJLanZNWEZQcnlQYnY0&export=download] John M. Howe EMC Engineer MiCOM Labs Inc. 575 Boulder Court Pleasanton, CA 94566 Phone: +1 (925) 462-0304<tel:%2B1%20%28925%29%20462-0304> Fax: +1 (925) 462-0306<tel:%2B1%20%28925%29%20462-0306> www.micomlabs.com<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.micomlabs.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7Ckevin.3.harris%40jci.com%7C8af3ba9614864f0a7f3508d6714b0cd3%7Ca1f1e2147ded45b681a19e8ae3459641%7C0%7C0%7C636820964498142117&sdata=6vT5aVuLUX0npH2w58vXWBKxASV6gfHYZytnP1Icu7A%3D&reserved=0> IMPORTANT NOTICE The information contained in this e-mail is intended for the named recipients only. It may contain privileged and confidential information and if you are not the intended recipient you must not copy, distribute or take any action in reliance upon it. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail or telephone. IMPORTANT NOTICE This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and/or legally privileged and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the addressee indicated in this e-mail (or responsible for the delivery of the email to such person) be advised that you have received this e-mail in error, and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please notify the sender by reply e-mail and then immediately permanently delete it and all copies from your system. Whilst we maintain virus checks, we accept no liability for viruses introduced from this e-mail. - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Femc-pstc.html&data=02%7C01%7Ckevin.3.harris%40jci.com%7C8af3ba9614864f0a7f3508d6714b0cd3%7Ca1f1e2147ded45b681a19e8ae3459641%7C0%7C0%7C636820964498142117&sdata=PoK8Kb00V1t6PiI6ztda5iEe6Cg0hFqx2%2BVfgIilVY4%3D&reserved=0> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fproduct-compliance.oc.ieee.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Ckevin.3.harris%40jci.com%7C8af3ba9614864f0a7f3508d6714b0cd3%7Ca1f1e2147ded45b681a19e8ae3459641%7C0%7C0%7C636820964498152121&sdata=2A4kQ1GyYqe6n%2BxGAbOVFUmzMX3tYw628YI88eMVjaU%3D&reserved=0> can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Ckevin.3.harris%40jci.com%7C8af3ba9614864f0a7f3508d6714b0cd3%7Ca1f1e2147ded45b681a19e8ae3459641%7C0%7C0%7C636820964498152121&sdata=MHBnbDvQo2zNfex%2FWxX0Js6b3doNKw8KMRUmBf%2Fc4dg%3D&reserved=0> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Flist.html&data=02%7C01%7Ckevin.3.harris%40jci.com%7C8af3ba9614864f0a7f3508d6714b0cd3%7Ca1f1e2147ded45b681a19e8ae3459641%7C0%7C0%7C636820964498162129&sdata=uvuinVVIdyQFWNFbnwBS2LkebypteBMyvFCuy6Jkiho%3D&reserved=0> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Flistrules.html&data=02%7C01%7Ckevin.3.harris%40jci.com%7C8af3ba9614864f0a7f3508d6714b0cd3%7Ca1f1e2147ded45b681a19e8ae3459641%7C0%7C0%7C636820964498172137&sdata=51zjRu7aHk6%2B8jJKxpbyv3Hchy03NTDEFmdSoAAsJvs%3D&reserved=0> For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Mike Cantwell <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> David Heald <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Femc-pstc.html&data=02%7C01%7Ckevin.3.harris%40jci.com%7C8af3ba9614864f0a7f3508d6714b0cd3%7Ca1f1e2147ded45b681a19e8ae3459641%7C0%7C0%7C636820964498172137&sdata=Pe9is2gvks7bkUlnh070Ob60LKhc%2BB%2FsO9R0Tlwd1T8%3D&reserved=0> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fproduct-compliance.oc.ieee.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Ckevin.3.harris%40jci.com%7C8af3ba9614864f0a7f3508d6714b0cd3%7Ca1f1e2147ded45b681a19e8ae3459641%7C0%7C0%7C636820964498182150&sdata=%2FMjYuj%2BVYXXDUCg00j6S1Mv%2FbbsO8ylCyu%2F%2BN5hO0gY%3D&reserved=0> can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Ckevin.3.harris%40jci.com%7C8af3ba9614864f0a7f3508d6714b0cd3%7Ca1f1e2147ded45b681a19e8ae3459641%7C0%7C0%7C636820964498192158&sdata=1ZnWMn5T8Y86dZ82G%2FyqRwiPiGpUgQSXftLTb2jAJ8s%3D&reserved=0> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Flist.html&data=02%7C01%7Ckevin.3.harris%40jci.com%7C8af3ba9614864f0a7f3508d6714b0cd3%7Ca1f1e2147ded45b681a19e8ae3459641%7C0%7C0%7C636820964498192158&sdata=knywgAaYv8pOGjTQRCNpCmkHsbTh60asza0CdvlzQ%2B8%3D&reserved=0> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Flistrules.html&data=02%7C01%7Ckevin.3.harris%40jci.com%7C8af3ba9614864f0a7f3508d6714b0cd3%7Ca1f1e2147ded45b681a19e8ae3459641%7C0%7C0%7C636820964498202174&sdata=plRnhxhnuchUfLWA3rkNm%2B9uttrWAPJyn87W9gPs5RU%3D&reserved=0> For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Mike Cantwell <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> David Heald <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <[email protected]> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <[email protected]> Mike Cantwell <[email protected]> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: <[email protected]> David Heald: <[email protected]>
