Excellent point, and I've mostly seen this orientation on partitioned office walls.
~Doug Douglas E Powell On Mon, Jun 15, 2026 at 6:37 AM James Hulbert < [email protected]> wrote: > Of course in our office and in many commercial locations, the ground pin > is neither on top nor on bottom: > > > > > > Jim Hulbert > > > > *From:* Ron <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Friday, June 12, 2026 11:28 PM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] [PSES] Friday Question - in the USA, > ground pin down or gorund pin up? > > > > This message is from an *EXTERNAL EMAIL* system. Use caution and think > before opening attachments, clicking links, or responding. > > First, welcome from world of retirement. It's been a long while since I > contributed. > > > > For the subject at hand, my father was a licensed electrician & would > install outlets with the ground pin facing up to signal that the receptacle > (or half of a duplex receptacle) was controlled by a wall switch. I don't > know how common practice that was, but it seems to be. > > > > From a safety perspective, I am not aware if either orientation is more or > less safe also as confirmed below (especially since I've not been active in > compliance for some years now). > > > > Hope this answered your question. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Ron Pickard > *Sent from my Smartphone* > > > > On June 12, 2026, at 19:32, Ted Eckert < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > The orientation of the ground pin likely doesn't matter if there is any > flooding. The frame of the duplex outlet is ground, and the line and > neutral screws on the sides are symmetrical, so there will be a line > connection towards the bottom regardless of which orientation the outlet is > installed in. > > > > Nonmetallic sheathed cable, such as Romex, often has paper around the > ground wire as a spacer. If there is any flooding, water wicks into the > cable and rots it from the inside out. This cable would need to be stripped > from a flood-damaged structure. In my opinion, this is a bigger issue in a > flooded residential structure in the U.S. I think the outlet orientation > would be a very low priority at that point. > > > > UL_Flood_Electrical_Equipment_WP_V4.pdf > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://code-authorities.ul.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/46/2019/12/UL_Flood_Electrical_Equipment_WP_V4.pdf__;!!GXa4NB5MBjHR!Rnz5BXBm3iADyJLxFuEusldl7cLkPSdLsaUQ-fNcB7wM_lpcPUH_uJvjUKBnLC_Iigde_PxcsYGBmi9vsObN86KQHg$> > > > > Ted Eckert > > *The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of > my employers or UL. * > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Larry Merchell <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Friday, June 12, 2026 6:01 PM > *To:* [email protected] <[email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] [PSES] Friday Question - in the USA, > ground pin down or gorund pin up? > > > > You don't often get email from [email protected]. Learn why this is > important > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification__;!!GXa4NB5MBjHR!Rnz5BXBm3iADyJLxFuEusldl7cLkPSdLsaUQ-fNcB7wM_lpcPUH_uJvjUKBnLC_Iigde_PxcsYGBmi9vsOaR3ADZsQ$> > > Is the ground pin down safer in a single fault condition where there is a > flood or if the fire sprinklers are activated? > > > > Larry Merchell > ------------------------------ > > *From:* John Woodgate <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Friday, June 12, 2026 4:12 PM > *To:* [email protected] <[email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] [PSES] Friday Question - in the USA, > ground pin down or gorund pin up? > > > > Agreed; losing the ground connection must not create an unsafe condition, > but leakage is inevitable, even if it is much less than 1 mA, so that when > the ground connection is lost, accessible parts may be at 50 V or so to > ground when touched, which can be felt as a mild shock. > > On 2026-06-12 23:42, Ralph McDiarmid wrote: > > A fundamental axiom across all modern product‑safety standards is that > two independent levels of protection must exist so that no single failure > can result in a hazard or in an unsafe condition. > > > > *From:* John Woodgate <[email protected]> <[email protected]> > *Sent:* June 12, 2026 8:58 AM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] [PSES] Friday Question - in the USA, > ground pin down or gorund pin up? > > > > Yes, but that by itself should not create an unsafe condition. A second > fault is needed (NOT!) to make accessible conducting parts live. There > might be a mild shock due to leakage current, though. > > On 2026-06-12 16:24, Ted Eckert wrote: > > However, if the plug is pulled at a severe angle, there is a risk that the > ground connection breaks before line and neutral. > > -- > Best wishes John Woodgate RAYLEIGH Essex OOO-Own Opinions Only > www.woodjohn.uk > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.woodjohn.uk/__;!!GXa4NB5MBjHR!Rnz5BXBm3iADyJLxFuEusldl7cLkPSdLsaUQ-fNcB7wM_lpcPUH_uJvjUKBnLC_Iigde_PxcsYGBmi9vsObkJVRnug$> > If something is true: * as far as we know - it's science *for certain - > it's mathematics *unquestionably - it's religion > > > > > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient__;!!GXa4NB5MBjHR!Rnz5BXBm3iADyJLxFuEusldl7cLkPSdLsaUQ-fNcB7wM_lpcPUH_uJvjUKBnLC_Iigde_PxcsYGBmi9vsObfjBNG-Q$> > > Virus-free.www.avg.com > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient__;!!GXa4NB5MBjHR!Rnz5BXBm3iADyJLxFuEusldl7cLkPSdLsaUQ-fNcB7wM_lpcPUH_uJvjUKBnLC_Iigde_PxcsYGBmi9vsObfjBNG-Q$> > ------------------------------ > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > [email protected] > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/*20__;JQ!!GXa4NB5MBjHR!Rnz5BXBm3iADyJLxFuEusldl7cLkPSdLsaUQ-fNcB7wM_lpcPUH_uJvjUKBnLC_Iigde_PxcsYGBmi9vsOZ4pMs0aA$> > > Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/__;!!GXa4NB5MBjHR!Rnz5BXBm3iADyJLxFuEusldl7cLkPSdLsaUQ-fNcB7wM_lpcPUH_uJvjUKBnLC_Iigde_PxcsYGBmi9vsObshF1Skg$> > Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html__;!!GXa4NB5MBjHR!Rnz5BXBm3iADyJLxFuEusldl7cLkPSdLsaUQ-fNcB7wM_lpcPUH_uJvjUKBnLC_Iigde_PxcsYGBmi9vsObPnXFvhw$> > List rules: > https://pses.ieee.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/EM-PSTC-List-Rules.pdf > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://pses.ieee.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/EM-PSTC-List-Rules.pdf__;!!GXa4NB5MBjHR!Rnz5BXBm3iADyJLxFuEusldl7cLkPSdLsaUQ-fNcB7wM_lpcPUH_uJvjUKBnLC_Iigde_PxcsYGBmi9vsOaqJPaISg$> > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Mike Sherman at: [email protected] > Rick Linford at: [email protected] > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher at: [email protected] > ------------------------------ > > To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: > https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC&A=1 > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC&A=1__;!!GXa4NB5MBjHR!Rnz5BXBm3iADyJLxFuEusldl7cLkPSdLsaUQ-fNcB7wM_lpcPUH_uJvjUKBnLC_Iigde_PxcsYGBmi9vsObCnBIHUw$> > ------------------------------ > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > [email protected] > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/__;!!GXa4NB5MBjHR!Rnz5BXBm3iADyJLxFuEusldl7cLkPSdLsaUQ-fNcB7wM_lpcPUH_uJvjUKBnLC_Iigde_PxcsYGBmi9vsOZeVer18A$> > > Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/__;!!GXa4NB5MBjHR!Rnz5BXBm3iADyJLxFuEusldl7cLkPSdLsaUQ-fNcB7wM_lpcPUH_uJvjUKBnLC_Iigde_PxcsYGBmi9vsObshF1Skg$> > Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html__;!!GXa4NB5MBjHR!Rnz5BXBm3iADyJLxFuEusldl7cLkPSdLsaUQ-fNcB7wM_lpcPUH_uJvjUKBnLC_Iigde_PxcsYGBmi9vsObPnXFvhw$> > List rules: > https://pses.ieee.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/EM-PSTC-List-Rules.pdf > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://pses.ieee.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/EM-PSTC-List-Rules.pdf__;!!GXa4NB5MBjHR!Rnz5BXBm3iADyJLxFuEusldl7cLkPSdLsaUQ-fNcB7wM_lpcPUH_uJvjUKBnLC_Iigde_PxcsYGBmi9vsOaqJPaISg$> > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Mike Sherman at: [email protected] > Rick Linford at: [email protected] > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher at: [email protected] > ------------------------------ > > To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: > https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC&A=1 > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC&A=1__;!!GXa4NB5MBjHR!Rnz5BXBm3iADyJLxFuEusldl7cLkPSdLsaUQ-fNcB7wM_lpcPUH_uJvjUKBnLC_Iigde_PxcsYGBmi9vsObCnBIHUw$> > > -- > Best wishes John Woodgate RAYLEIGH Essex OOO-Own Opinions Only > www.woodjohn.uk > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.woodjohn.uk/__;!!GXa4NB5MBjHR!Rnz5BXBm3iADyJLxFuEusldl7cLkPSdLsaUQ-fNcB7wM_lpcPUH_uJvjUKBnLC_Iigde_PxcsYGBmi9vsObkJVRnug$> > If something is true: * as far as we know - it's science *for certain - > it's mathematics *unquestionably - it's religion > ------------------------------ > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > [email protected] > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/__;!!GXa4NB5MBjHR!Rnz5BXBm3iADyJLxFuEusldl7cLkPSdLsaUQ-fNcB7wM_lpcPUH_uJvjUKBnLC_Iigde_PxcsYGBmi9vsOZeVer18A$> > > Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/__;!!GXa4NB5MBjHR!Rnz5BXBm3iADyJLxFuEusldl7cLkPSdLsaUQ-fNcB7wM_lpcPUH_uJvjUKBnLC_Iigde_PxcsYGBmi9vsObshF1Skg$> > Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html__;!!GXa4NB5MBjHR!Rnz5BXBm3iADyJLxFuEusldl7cLkPSdLsaUQ-fNcB7wM_lpcPUH_uJvjUKBnLC_Iigde_PxcsYGBmi9vsObPnXFvhw$> > List rules: > https://pses.ieee.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/EM-PSTC-List-Rules.pdf > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://pses.ieee.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/EM-PSTC-List-Rules.pdf__;!!GXa4NB5MBjHR!Rnz5BXBm3iADyJLxFuEusldl7cLkPSdLsaUQ-fNcB7wM_lpcPUH_uJvjUKBnLC_Iigde_PxcsYGBmi9vsOaqJPaISg$> > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Mike Sherman at: [email protected] > Rick Linford at: [email protected] > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher at: [email protected] > ------------------------------ > > To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: > https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC&A=1 > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC&A=1__;!!GXa4NB5MBjHR!Rnz5BXBm3iADyJLxFuEusldl7cLkPSdLsaUQ-fNcB7wM_lpcPUH_uJvjUKBnLC_Iigde_PxcsYGBmi9vsObCnBIHUw$> > ------------------------------ > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > [email protected] > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/__;!!GXa4NB5MBjHR!Rnz5BXBm3iADyJLxFuEusldl7cLkPSdLsaUQ-fNcB7wM_lpcPUH_uJvjUKBnLC_Iigde_PxcsYGBmi9vsOZeVer18A$> > > Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/__;!!GXa4NB5MBjHR!Rnz5BXBm3iADyJLxFuEusldl7cLkPSdLsaUQ-fNcB7wM_lpcPUH_uJvjUKBnLC_Iigde_PxcsYGBmi9vsObshF1Skg$> > Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html__;!!GXa4NB5MBjHR!Rnz5BXBm3iADyJLxFuEusldl7cLkPSdLsaUQ-fNcB7wM_lpcPUH_uJvjUKBnLC_Iigde_PxcsYGBmi9vsObPnXFvhw$> > List rules: > https://pses.ieee.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/EM-PSTC-List-Rules.pdf > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://pses.ieee.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/EM-PSTC-List-Rules.pdf__;!!GXa4NB5MBjHR!Rnz5BXBm3iADyJLxFuEusldl7cLkPSdLsaUQ-fNcB7wM_lpcPUH_uJvjUKBnLC_Iigde_PxcsYGBmi9vsOaqJPaISg$> > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Mike Sherman at: [email protected] > Rick Linford at: [email protected] > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher at: [email protected] > ------------------------------ > > To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: > https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC&A=1 > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC&A=1__;!!GXa4NB5MBjHR!Rnz5BXBm3iADyJLxFuEusldl7cLkPSdLsaUQ-fNcB7wM_lpcPUH_uJvjUKBnLC_Iigde_PxcsYGBmi9vsObCnBIHUw$> > ------------------------------ > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > [email protected] > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/__;!!GXa4NB5MBjHR!Rnz5BXBm3iADyJLxFuEusldl7cLkPSdLsaUQ-fNcB7wM_lpcPUH_uJvjUKBnLC_Iigde_PxcsYGBmi9vsOZeVer18A$> > > Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/__;!!GXa4NB5MBjHR!Rnz5BXBm3iADyJLxFuEusldl7cLkPSdLsaUQ-fNcB7wM_lpcPUH_uJvjUKBnLC_Iigde_PxcsYGBmi9vsObshF1Skg$> > Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html__;!!GXa4NB5MBjHR!Rnz5BXBm3iADyJLxFuEusldl7cLkPSdLsaUQ-fNcB7wM_lpcPUH_uJvjUKBnLC_Iigde_PxcsYGBmi9vsObPnXFvhw$> > List rules: > https://pses.ieee.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/EM-PSTC-List-Rules.pdf > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://pses.ieee.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/EM-PSTC-List-Rules.pdf__;!!GXa4NB5MBjHR!Rnz5BXBm3iADyJLxFuEusldl7cLkPSdLsaUQ-fNcB7wM_lpcPUH_uJvjUKBnLC_Iigde_PxcsYGBmi9vsOaqJPaISg$> > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Mike Sherman at: [email protected] > Rick Linford at: [email protected] > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher at: [email protected] > ------------------------------ > > To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: > https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC&A=1 > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC&A=1__;!!GXa4NB5MBjHR!Rnz5BXBm3iADyJLxFuEusldl7cLkPSdLsaUQ-fNcB7wM_lpcPUH_uJvjUKBnLC_Iigde_PxcsYGBmi9vsObCnBIHUw$> > > ------------------------------ > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > [email protected] > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/__;!!GXa4NB5MBjHR!Rnz5BXBm3iADyJLxFuEusldl7cLkPSdLsaUQ-fNcB7wM_lpcPUH_uJvjUKBnLC_Iigde_PxcsYGBmi9vsOZeVer18A$> > > Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/__;!!GXa4NB5MBjHR!Rnz5BXBm3iADyJLxFuEusldl7cLkPSdLsaUQ-fNcB7wM_lpcPUH_uJvjUKBnLC_Iigde_PxcsYGBmi9vsObshF1Skg$> > Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html__;!!GXa4NB5MBjHR!Rnz5BXBm3iADyJLxFuEusldl7cLkPSdLsaUQ-fNcB7wM_lpcPUH_uJvjUKBnLC_Iigde_PxcsYGBmi9vsObPnXFvhw$> > List rules: > https://pses.ieee.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/EM-PSTC-List-Rules.pdf > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://pses.ieee.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/EM-PSTC-List-Rules.pdf__;!!GXa4NB5MBjHR!Rnz5BXBm3iADyJLxFuEusldl7cLkPSdLsaUQ-fNcB7wM_lpcPUH_uJvjUKBnLC_Iigde_PxcsYGBmi9vsOaqJPaISg$> > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Mike Sherman at: [email protected] > Rick Linford at: [email protected] > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher at: [email protected] > ------------------------------ > > To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: > https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC&A=1 > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC&A=1__;!!GXa4NB5MBjHR!Rnz5BXBm3iADyJLxFuEusldl7cLkPSdLsaUQ-fNcB7wM_lpcPUH_uJvjUKBnLC_Iigde_PxcsYGBmi9vsObCnBIHUw$> > This email message may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged > information. It is intended only for the use of the intended recipient(s). > If you have received it in error, please immediately advise the sender by > reply email and then delete this message. No one other than the intended > recipient may disclose, copy, distribute or use the information contained > in this message. > ------------------------------ > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > [email protected] > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ > > Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ > Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) <https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html> > List rules: > https://pses.ieee.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/EM-PSTC-List-Rules.pdf > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Mike Sherman at: [email protected] > Rick Linford at: [email protected] > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher at: [email protected] > ------------------------------ > > To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: > https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC&A=1 > - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to [email protected] All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://pses.ieee.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/EM-PSTC-List-Rules.pdf For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: [email protected] Rick Linford at: [email protected] For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: <[email protected]> _________________________________________________ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC&A=1
