On Sun, 30 Oct 2011 04:14:24 -0400 Youness Alaoui <kakar...@kakaroto.homelinux.net> said:
> More users means more exposure means more contributions and how can you be > so arrogant as to judge these would-be developers as being "not worth > talking about" before you've actually seen their work, you might be because i've been there before with e releases. it didn't create some big massive influx of new developers. the few that come (that ae good) do not come in at a significantly higher rate than currently. > surprised. This attitude is maybe the real reason as to why the dev > community is so small, the remaining devs are maybe the few ones who are > actually able to keep up with your insane judgmental crap. > "been there, done that", really ? I guess I missed the e17 release that > you've done already.. in that case, forget everything I said! e 016, 0.15, 0.14, 0.13, 0.12 0.11, 0.10, 0.9, 0.8, 0.7, 0.6, 0.5, 0.4, 0.3, 0.2, 0.1, imlib1.0, 1.1, 1.2..... imlib2... evas 1.0, edje 1.0, ecore 1.0.... can i go on? > oh and what makes me think we might get a deluge, it's simply because > people won't invest their time in something that technically "doesn't > exist" and doesn't have any users. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe you'll only get > one more developer, or maybe even zero, it doesn't matter, don't judge too > soon and see what happens instead of assuming you can predict the future. as i said - been there, done that. if you think we'll get a deluge of new developers who we won't suddenly find 100% of our time spent dealing with and never actually doing anything anymore, then i'll be surprised. most are scared away by c these days. if its not as easy as javascript or python it frightens them. of those left, only a few are actually really good. it may be a matter of skill, mindset or experience - but this is reality. we will gain lots of users, but very few developers. we released efl 1.0 back at the start of the year... is there a massive rise in developers? :) > On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 3:49 AM, Carsten Haitzler <ras...@rasterman.com>wrote: > > > On Sun, 30 Oct 2011 03:47:05 -0400 Youness Alaoui > > <kakar...@kakaroto.homelinux.net> said: > > > > we'll get 50x the users complaining and asking for help. we don't get any > > developers worth talking about to make up for it. been there. done that. > > if the > > current developer base is so disinterested in e17 then what makes u think > > u'll > > suddenly get a deluge of them? > > > > > The point is that without a release, you can't expect interest in > > > 'vaporware'. After the release, there is a very good chance that you will > > > see a lot more people interested in it and more contributors. > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 10:50 PM, Carsten Haitzler > > > <ras...@rasterman.com>wrote: > > > > > > > On Sat, 29 Oct 2011 11:10:21 -0400 Youness Alaoui > > > > <kakar...@kakaroto.homelinux.net> said: > > > > > > > > we won't catch up because no one works on e17. no one is interested in > > it > > > > anymore and a release won't change that/ 99% of the development effort > > is > > > > on > > > > EFL not e. > > > > > > > > > Thanks Gustavo, you said many of the same things that I just said > > (email > > > > was > > > > > written async) and you made me realize one point... the WM world is > > > > > constantly changing, when we are ready for release, some new thing > > will > > > > come > > > > > out and then we need to adapt again... E17 was the most beautiful WM > > out > > > > > there, and then compiz was released and it added cool new effects, > > then > > > > > gnome 3 was released, and with all that, E17 is starting to get > > > > outdated.. > > > > > if you don't release, you'll never be able to catch up (they caught > > up to > > > > > you, but they stole the users who wanted those features but couldn't > > see > > > > a > > > > > release to get them from). > > > > > I won't make this any longer :) > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 6:01 AM, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri < > > > > > barbi...@profusion.mobi> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 12:55 AM, Michael Jennings <m...@kainx.org> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > On Saturday, 29 October 2011, at 11:23:37 (+0900), > > > > > > > Carsten Haitzler wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> i'll post here as a summary. what k-s wants is to just release > > > > e17-as is > > > > > > after > > > > > > >> fixing some efm bugs. who agrees with that? everything stays > > as-is. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> the reason xrandr is on the todo is that there are many > > complaints > > > > and > > > > > > >> questions about how to get multi screen to work and we have no > > > > solution. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> the reason taskbar is there is because engage is compositing > > based > > > > > > realistically > > > > > > >> and we have to work without, and we again have had enough users > > > > complain > > > > > > and > > > > > > >> ask for a way to switch tasks. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> the reason efm is on the list is its mostly working and usable > > as a > > > > > > simple > > > > > > >> filemanager - that was its point. it needs some bugs fixed. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> the reason keymap config is there is for all those europeans > > (and a > > > > few > > > > > > others) > > > > > > >> with odd keymaps and people have no clue how to configure this > > on a > > > > > > >> command-line or in config files. the other todo items could get > > > > dropped, > > > > > > though > > > > > > >> theme does need to be polished. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> this wasnt unilaterally decided by me. i believe in making a > > good > > > > > > attempt at a > > > > > > >> quality release. gustavo just believes in dumping out whatever > > we > > > > have. > > > > > > all the > > > > > > >> bitching about gnome and others will happen to us if we don't > > > > provide > > > > > > these > > > > > > >> basics that gnome etc. already DO. to many people we are > > useless. > > > > these > > > > > > are not > > > > > > >> new fangled ideas or standards - this is old hat that we haven't > > > > > > covered. so > > > > > > >> how do u expect to make those people happy and try or stay with > > e > > > > when > > > > > > we are > > > > > > >> not functional in some key aspects? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Absolutely correct. > > > > > > > > > > > > The way you guys put thing looks like revolutionary stuff is coming > > > > > > before the release. The missing features won't hurt as much others > > you > > > > > > guys never cited. > > > > > > > > > > > > If the person is willing to use E17 you can be sure that features > > > > > > (even basic) doesn't play a role in his life as he can work out his > > > > > > stuff. If person wants features, they will very likely move between > > > > > > the 3 big ones (GNOME, KDE or Unity). There are tons of other > > features > > > > > > these people will miss, from indexing files to broader connection > > > > > > management (connman is not as used as networkmanager) to > > integration > > > > > > with web2.0 services such as sending pictures to picasa or flickr. > > > > > > > > > > > > IMO we're getting people that would be willing to move to awesome > > or > > > > > > fluxbox. That is, zero features, just speed and control. Like a > > > > > > sportive car. We can compete there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After 10 years of development, releasing nothing is far, far > > > > > > > preferable to releasing something half-assed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can hear the comments now. "I've waited this long for crap? > > 10 > > > > > > > years, and this is the best they can do? Never again!" > > > > > > > > > > > > This WILL happen. Because of exactly this argument. We don't > > release, > > > > > > developers go away and we have less man power. Other desktops don't > > > > > > stop, they release and get more developers, they can implement > > more. > > > > > > Features won't stop showing. > > > > > > > > > > > > In 2007 when I joined to project I was wondering why it was not > > > > > > released. By the time we still had basics like language and efm to > > do. > > > > > > We did not release and since then we also started to miss Composite > > > > > > Manager (done, while lang was not), Indexer Integration (partially > > > > > > done with Tracker in Everything)... very soon we'll have to > > implement > > > > > > the new FDO standards for applications menu and systray. > > > > > > > > > > > > Even the canonical arguments "fancy" and "light" are not applying > > > > > > these days. We're boring compared to competition. There are really > > > > > > light WM out there. > > > > > > > > > > > > That said, the more we wait, the worse it gets. We'll have to > > suffer, > > > > > > let's do it for once and for all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If people are honestly that bent out of shape wanting a release, > > they > > > > > > > should be hammering away on the TODO list. Getting shit done is > > how > > > > a > > > > > > > release will happen, not rehashing the same tired old argument > > every > > > > > > > few months diverting time from more productive pursuits. > > > > > > > > > > > > I did try this approach earlier. It did not work. I've worked for > > > > > > years in the TODO list, yet the list is never enough for people > > > > > > blocking the release. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri > > > > > > http://profusion.mobi embedded systems > > > > > > -------------------------------------- > > > > > > MSN: barbi...@gmail.com > > > > > > Skype: gsbarbieri > > > > > > Mobile: +55 (19) 9225-2202 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > Get your Android app more play: Bring it to the BlackBerry PlayBook > > > > > > in minutes. BlackBerry App World™ now supports Android™ > > Apps > > > > > > for the BlackBerry® PlayBook™. Discover just how easy and > > > > simple > > > > > > it is! http://p.sf.net/sfu/android-dev2dev > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > enlightenment-devel mailing list > > > > > > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > Get your Android app more play: Bring it to the BlackBerry PlayBook > > > > > in minutes. BlackBerry App World™ now supports Android™ > > Apps > > > > > for the BlackBerry® PlayBook™. Discover just how easy and > > simple > > > > > it is! http://p.sf.net/sfu/android-dev2dev > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > enlightenment-devel mailing list > > > > > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" > > -------------- > > > > The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -------------- > > The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Get your Android app more play: Bring it to the BlackBerry PlayBook > in minutes. BlackBerry App World™ now supports Android™ Apps > for the BlackBerry® PlayBook™. Discover just how easy and simple > it is! http://p.sf.net/sfu/android-dev2dev > _______________________________________________ > enlightenment-devel mailing list > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > -- ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -------------- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get your Android app more play: Bring it to the BlackBerry PlayBook in minutes. BlackBerry App World™ now supports Android™ Apps for the BlackBerry® PlayBook™. Discover just how easy and simple it is! http://p.sf.net/sfu/android-dev2dev _______________________________________________ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
