On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 3:12 AM, P Purkayastha <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 11/21/2012 07:26 AM, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: > > On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 13:30:42 -0200 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri > > <[email protected]> said: > > > >> Ideas: > >> > >> - About -> inside settings, doesn't need to be so highlighted as the > main > >> menu. I'd say rename "settings" so we can use it for more than just > that, > >> it's a place holder for other stuff of enlightenment. > > > > renaming it is not a good idea... where do people find settings them? > settings > > is one of the better bits of the menu. changing it just because you wish > to > > get rid of the enlightenment entry is overall becoming worse than better. > > > >> - Restart/Exit E: again, this is just for E17 test, so bad for > end-users. > >> I've mentioned Xephyr but indeed you might forget to grab and the > shortcut > >> will go to outside E17 and problems will happen. What about doing it for > >> Everything? Then you see where you'll type the action and it's clear. > You > >> can name them "e-restart" and "e-exit" commands. > > > > i'm sure not going to do all this work just to remove a menu, that to > date has > > not caused any issues i know of. i've asked a few times now for real > info on > > issues it's caused - real datapoints. but unless there is another viable > and > > sane way of doing these things - they stay. doing some minor > re-labelling is > > doable. maybe moving a menu item here and there, but now we're talking > of work > > that REALLY doesn't need to be done - there are much more important > things to > > do. :) > > > >> In the mood of refactoring the menus... if we merge Enlightenment + > >> Settings (maybe call it Enlightenment?), we can remove the "Desktop" > from > > > > settings includes stuff unrelated to e at all - see the system and > preferences > > tabs that pull in standard settings tools. > > > >> main menu as it's not as useful (menu to change desktop is not that > common, > >> add/configure shelves and gadgets are more like configuration that you > do > >> once a year, show/hide windows can go under Windows main menu entry). > > > > so its in a submenu... that's why its in a submenu. its a single entry > in the > > main menu for "general desktop controls". if it was inside the main menu > - > > i'd totally agree. > > > > please read up about the latest windows 8 criticisms. you're going the > exact > > same direction. you're on a head-long run into trying to remove as much > as you > > can, and in the process you hurt discoverability (and usability) and the > people > > who don't know the key bindings etc. etc. etc. - everything even vaguely > useful > > or used even a few times SHOULD be in a menu - even if it's not used > much. in > > fact we currently have too FEW things in menus. we've removed way too > much. > > people need to be able to find the thing they want without knowing magic > > gestures, invisible click regions, or obscure keybindings etc. - the > main menu > > is just that. it's a central point of control that is very fast to find > (start > > gadget or click anywhere on the desktop - probably one of the first > things a > > person does when presented with a new blank wm/screen). this menu should > > provide a easy starting point for a user to discover more and access the > things > > they need or want. preferably nothing should be more than 2 or 3 > clicks/jumps > > away (but reality is that we have so many options, features etc. that we > just > > can't sensibly manage that without a menu-from-hell). > > > > i fully support the streamlining and improving of menus. agreed, but > removing > > stuff is something that should be done only as a very last resort. > > re-organizing - sure, but at this stage i sure don't want to spend the > time > > re-organizing the main menu. modules DEPEND on existing hook points to > insert > > items - re-orgs affect all of those. > > > >> As for "Windows" i dislike it and shouldn't be that useful... but > the > >> "cleanup windows" and the action to recover lost windows are indeed > >> useful... but likely the DM should avoid losing the windows instead of > add > >> them to a menu? Anyway, this one i see more reasoning to keep. > > > > it happens that apps ask to place their windows off the screen - and e > honors > > that. in the case of things like "guake" they legitimately want a window > off the > > screen so they can slide it in (yes - i know. this is a hack, and should > be > > part of the wm and quickaccess, but apps will persist in doing these > things > > themselves). if you ignore such requests you then break such apps, so > reality > > is... in order to not break some apps, windows can become lost - when > apps try > > remember their position, and you changed resolution/monitors since > (x11amp used > > to love doing this), and you had it bottom-right, and now it asks for a > > position off the screen.. and you can't get to the window. that menu item > > exists because of real world problems and we can try as we might - we > either > > break app a or break app b. the menu is the solution to when things > break. if > > we could actually modify the apps to ensure none of them do stupid > things like > > this - we'd have a good solution... but we can't :) > > > > also fyi - the windows menu is there because most wm's in x11 have had > such a > > thing, and i highly suggest we don't make the gnome 3 mistake of > forgetting our > > roots in favor of chasing some userbase that may never come. it also > serves the > > purpose of discoverability - it's EASY to find a list of windows and > access > > them without the need for keybindings or a shelf, which makes some users > really > > happy as they want a "clean uncluttered desktop" and the menu is only > called up > > when requested... > > > +1 > > As a user, I say keep it. There is no harm done in having some > redundancy in the menus. I have found each of those menu options > "Desktop" and "Windows" useful from time to time. Even the > "Enlightenment" menu has been of use to me to determine the version of e > I am running and to restart e by using only the mouse. I haven't found > any use for the Enlightenment -> Theme, but there is no harm in having > it there. > "There is no harm" -> indeed, depending on what harm is defined. It surely won't crash e17, or "rm -fr /", but they may bring the user some first-use impact that is not desired (cluttered impression). I guess this is why Lucas mentioned it. As for Desktop & Windows menus... my point was exactly that you shouldn't need these, as the WM should handle those for you. Having to go clear windows or figure out where are the lost one (out of screen) is like going back to the 90's. At this point the WM should be smarter to have those done for you. Restart e is, as I also said before, just for development. Nobody except people developing E should ever need them. Actually other WM doesn't even allow that as they will exit their PID, going back to XSession that have you to login again... E17 just have these things because it's in development forever, so had to incorporate it... similar to the WhiteScreenOfDeath, which is nice but relates to the never-releasing software. -- Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri http://profusion.mobi embedded systems -------------------------------------- MSN: [email protected] Skype: gsbarbieri Mobile: +55 (19) 9225-2202 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Monitor your physical, virtual and cloud infrastructure from a single web console. Get in-depth insight into apps, servers, databases, vmware, SAP, cloud infrastructure, etc. Download 30-day Free Trial. 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