On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 13:30:42 -0200 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri <[email protected]> said:
> Ideas: > > - About -> inside settings, doesn't need to be so highlighted as the main > menu. I'd say rename "settings" so we can use it for more than just that, > it's a place holder for other stuff of enlightenment. renaming it is not a good idea... where do people find settings them? settings is one of the better bits of the menu. changing it just because you wish to get rid of the enlightenment entry is overall becoming worse than better. > - Restart/Exit E: again, this is just for E17 test, so bad for end-users. > I've mentioned Xephyr but indeed you might forget to grab and the shortcut > will go to outside E17 and problems will happen. What about doing it for > Everything? Then you see where you'll type the action and it's clear. You > can name them "e-restart" and "e-exit" commands. i'm sure not going to do all this work just to remove a menu, that to date has not caused any issues i know of. i've asked a few times now for real info on issues it's caused - real datapoints. but unless there is another viable and sane way of doing these things - they stay. doing some minor re-labelling is doable. maybe moving a menu item here and there, but now we're talking of work that REALLY doesn't need to be done - there are much more important things to do. :) > In the mood of refactoring the menus... if we merge Enlightenment + > Settings (maybe call it Enlightenment?), we can remove the "Desktop" from settings includes stuff unrelated to e at all - see the system and preferences tabs that pull in standard settings tools. > main menu as it's not as useful (menu to change desktop is not that common, > add/configure shelves and gadgets are more like configuration that you do > once a year, show/hide windows can go under Windows main menu entry). so its in a submenu... that's why its in a submenu. its a single entry in the main menu for "general desktop controls". if it was inside the main menu - i'd totally agree. please read up about the latest windows 8 criticisms. you're going the exact same direction. you're on a head-long run into trying to remove as much as you can, and in the process you hurt discoverability (and usability) and the people who don't know the key bindings etc. etc. etc. - everything even vaguely useful or used even a few times SHOULD be in a menu - even if it's not used much. in fact we currently have too FEW things in menus. we've removed way too much. people need to be able to find the thing they want without knowing magic gestures, invisible click regions, or obscure keybindings etc. - the main menu is just that. it's a central point of control that is very fast to find (start gadget or click anywhere on the desktop - probably one of the first things a person does when presented with a new blank wm/screen). this menu should provide a easy starting point for a user to discover more and access the things they need or want. preferably nothing should be more than 2 or 3 clicks/jumps away (but reality is that we have so many options, features etc. that we just can't sensibly manage that without a menu-from-hell). i fully support the streamlining and improving of menus. agreed, but removing stuff is something that should be done only as a very last resort. re-organizing - sure, but at this stage i sure don't want to spend the time re-organizing the main menu. modules DEPEND on existing hook points to insert items - re-orgs affect all of those. > As for "Windows" i dislike it and shouldn't be that useful... but the > "cleanup windows" and the action to recover lost windows are indeed > useful... but likely the DM should avoid losing the windows instead of add > them to a menu? Anyway, this one i see more reasoning to keep. it happens that apps ask to place their windows off the screen - and e honors that. in the case of things like "guake" they legitimately want a window off the screen so they can slide it in (yes - i know. this is a hack, and should be part of the wm and quickaccess, but apps will persist in doing these things themselves). if you ignore such requests you then break such apps, so reality is... in order to not break some apps, windows can become lost - when apps try remember their position, and you changed resolution/monitors since (x11amp used to love doing this), and you had it bottom-right, and now it asks for a position off the screen.. and you can't get to the window. that menu item exists because of real world problems and we can try as we might - we either break app a or break app b. the menu is the solution to when things break. if we could actually modify the apps to ensure none of them do stupid things like this - we'd have a good solution... but we can't :) also fyi - the windows menu is there because most wm's in x11 have had such a thing, and i highly suggest we don't make the gnome 3 mistake of forgetting our roots in favor of chasing some userbase that may never come. it also serves the purpose of discoverability - it's EASY to find a list of windows and access them without the need for keybindings or a shelf, which makes some users really happy as they want a "clean uncluttered desktop" and the menu is only called up when requested... > On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 1:16 PM, Carsten Haitzler <[email protected]>wrote: > > > On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 13:02:29 -0200 Lucas De Marchi > > <[email protected]> said: > > > > > On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 12:45 PM, Carsten Haitzler <[email protected] > > > > > > wrote: > > > > On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 10:43:05 -0200 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri > > > > <[email protected]> said: > > > > > > > >> On Tuesday, November 20, 2012, Leif Middelschulte wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > Am Dienstag, 20. November 2012 um 02:43 schrieb Carsten Haitzler: > > > >> > > On Mon, 19 Nov 2012 12:35:18 -0200 Lucas De Marchi > > > >> > > <[email protected] <javascript:;> (mailto: > > > >> > [email protected] <javascript:;>)> said: > > > >> > > > > > >> > > i just tried adding "about enlightenment" and "restart > > enlightenment", > > > >> > "exit > > > >> > > enlightenment" and it's horrible text duplication - it looks > > awful and > > > >> > > repetitive. it's already under the enlightenment parent item - > > thus the > > > >> > topic > > > >> > > already is "enlightenment"... there's context. the on ly thing > > that > > > >> > makes sense > > > >> > > to change is "Theme" -> "About Theme" > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > How about connecting that dialog to a button in the theme > > configuration > > > >> > and remove its link from the main menu? > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> I like this idea, the theme choose dialog could be bumped a bit and > > include > > > >> a screenshot object (EDC group) and also one about/authors, maybe > > link to > > > >> website. Another option is what I suggested before to make a single > > about > > > >> for theme and e > > > >> > > > >> As fit others (restart, exit): thinking again they sound too > > technical and > > > >> just useful during the development of e itself. I'd say remove it and > > keep > > > >> the keyboard actions. > > > > > > > > if there is just a keybinding, i literally will have to jump through a > > whole > > > > bunch of extra hoops with testing. when you use xpehyr you can kiss > > > > keybindings (and mousebindings) goodbye (without jumping through > > hoops). > > > > > > > > again - where are the actual issues users have had? > > > > > > humn... maybe this was just me. And I'd not claim to be an example of > > > user. I always felt this menu was weird/misplaced, but you never heard > > > about it because I never bothered to say a word ;-). Again, maybe > > > this is just me trying to think about a regular user > > > > sure - understood, but fyi - i use that menu every time i test e17 in > > xephyr. > > that menu i there because MOST wm's have that feature (desktops do not > > though > > and e is kind of half-way between), also the "about enlightenment" needs > > to go > > somewhere... because otherwise there is no sensible way for us to ask the > > user > > "what version of e do you have?" and for them to tell us (if you expect > > they > > know how to use a package manager to find out etc... then we expect a hell > > of a > > lot from "users"), other than that - it's a place to visibly list the > > people > > who have contributed to e17 - they deserve a bit of a spotlight, and from a > > legal point of view, it indicates in an accessible way to the user what > > e17's > > license is... well at least where to find it. actually it SHOULD literally > > have > > a copy of the license there - something i need to fix before full release. > > not > > to mention just about every app with a menu has an about box.. often help > > -> > > about ... so i don't see a usability issue with the about box. for the > > theme - > > you are right "theme" there was too uninformative - i've made it "about > > theme". > > also having something to configure theme from the theme about dialog was a > > good > > idea too. leifs idea of having a button from the theme config dialog to > > show the theme about seems just great to me - i like it, but that doesn't > > mean we REMOVE the theme about here... either way - it doesnt hurt to have > > it as long as that submenu still exists. if we cut it down to 1 item then > > a 1 > > item submenu just looks stupid... so we're down to "restart" and "exit". > > both > > of which i use relatively regularly during testing of e and the restart > > menu > > provides a discoverable way to restart e without knowing a magic > > keybinding, > > reading docs or going through a much longer list of keybindings in the gui > > config dialog... > > > > now.. if enlightenment should be an entry in the main menu or another level > > down or so - that is up for debate - but looking at the main menu, i just > > don't > > see anywhere nice and sensible for it... and it is just 1 entry - we're > > arguing > > over a single entry - it's not like we have 10 or 20 of them filling up the > > screen... > > > > so in summary - the menu is there for specific usability reasons - testing > > and > > wm features, as well as just needing a home for specific things like an > > about > > dialog entry... if this menu is actually causing user confusion - i'd like > > to > > see a bit more than 1 data point. like actual users going "help- i hit > > restart > > and i dont know what it does - i don't know what to do?" or "help - what > > is this > > about entry - it confuses me" etc. - if there are real problems then maybe > > we > > need to do some work to find a new home for it... but at this moment i > > can't > > see a home for it readily waiting... :) > > > > -- > > ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -------------- > > The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) [email protected] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Monitor your physical, virtual and cloud infrastructure from a single > > web console. Get in-depth insight into apps, servers, databases, vmware, > > SAP, cloud infrastructure, etc. Download 30-day Free Trial. > > Pricing starts from $795 for 25 servers or applications! > > http://p.sf.net/sfu/zoho_dev2dev_nov > > _______________________________________________ > > enlightenment-devel mailing list > > [email protected] > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > > > > -- > Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri > http://profusion.mobi embedded systems > -------------------------------------- > MSN: [email protected] > Skype: gsbarbieri > Mobile: +55 (19) 9225-2202 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Monitor your physical, virtual and cloud infrastructure from a single > web console. 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