Well, if the economy doesn't improve, that just might happen. I guess what really irritates me in the political wrangling is when people put defending their political parties and principles above listening to the particulars of any giving situation.
On Dec 22, 2009, at 1:26 PM, Paul Jost wrote: > There is unlikely to be any change unless there is either a lot of > money to be made or politicians' reelections are at stake. > > PJ > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Beth Koebel > <[email protected]> wrote: > Maybe Shakespere(sp?) had it wrong, it wasn't kill all the lawyers > it was suppose to be kill all the politians > Beth > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Dec 22, 2009, at 10:54, Lee Frelich <[email protected]> wrote: > > Paul: > > Once again, good points. We have swung back and forth between so- > called > liberal and conservative leaders, and in the mean time we got emerald > ash borer, dutch elm disease, hemlock wooley adelgid, balsam fir wooly > adelgid (which is now in Maine), butternut canker, beech bark disease, > Asian long-horned beetle, sudden oak death, sirex wood wasp, and > forest > decline caused by earthworms, deer and climate change. > > Lee > > Paul Jost wrote: > Lee, > > Yes, arguing about politics leads to distraction from the real > issues. The national press caters to their audience for higher > ratings and to get their viewers emotionally involved. There is often > little real content once the discussions begin to evolve, but are > effective in increasing the polarization of our country based upon a > subset of the issues that we all have to deal with. In a family of 9, > roughly half of my family swings to the left and half to the right, > all to varying degrees. Only my dad is addicted to the national > TV/Radio shows, probably because he has more free time to do so than > any of us. Thankfully, the shows have not been successful in reeling > me in. > > Among my disappointments with our country is the extent to which > forest issues get lost in modern politics. As people lose their ties > to the land, clean air and water seem to be the only important > environmental issues. There seems to be no national party that > adequately supports wildlife and wild lands issues. > > Paul > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 10:18 AM, Lee Frelich <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > Paul: > > Good points--you must be a true Midwesterner. Must have been those > "shock shows" as you termed them on Fox that I was watching that > accidentally started this whole discussion. As I said, they weren't > liberal or conservative, just irrational. Good thing I only watch > daytime TV once a year while having my car repaired. > > I do have a lot of fun watching other people accusing each other of > being liberal or conservative. Unfortunately, however, that activity > takes up almost all of the political scene and as a result, we > don't pay > any serious attention to problems that need to be solved. > > Lee > > Paul Jost wrote: > Come on, open your mind. CNN and MSNBC are horrible reporters, as > horribly liberal slanted as Fox is horribly conservative slanted. > Excluding the shock shows, Fox tends to more accurately report both > sides while still slanting conservative while the others put in only > token efforts to report the conservative viewpoints. None of the > national press sources are even close to being balanced. Both state > many truths mixed with omissions and distortions. If you believe > otherwise, than you only accept lies that support your view point, > which is not necessarily a good thing, but maybe to you it is. > > The truth is that the press on both sides has an agenda and slants > their reporting accordingly. Both parties have good points and bad > points on their platforms. Neither is the right choice. > Unfortunately, the other choices aren't realistic winners any time > soon. This is why many midwesterners tend to be middle of the > roaders, handpicking moderate candidates that lean their way. For > some reason, the more urban coast dwellers feel the need to be more > polarized and are condescending to eachother regarding their > viewpoints, both arrogantly asserting their correctness over the > other. > > Admit it. There is not perfect party, and at different levels, > local, > state, national, the right choice is not always from the same party. > ...and with the level of corruption that increases at the higher > levels, I'd argue that most of the time, there is no right > choice. We > have all heard many examples of anti-environmental policy by > conservatives, but the liberals are guilty of similar practices at > times, too. Here is one example that comes to mind, out of many. > Hopefully, all my recollections are accurate. > > Many liberals champion Clinton's environmental policy, while many at > regional and state levels that were affected by his poorer > environmental policies, chastised him. There was a western old > growth > preservationist group called something like Environmentalists > Against > Clinton, or something like that. There were others like the > Siskiyou > Regional Education Project. Easterners never heard about them. The > liberal national press didn't give them or their issues any > coverage. > They were angered by Clinton's signing of legislation with the > Salvage > Rider which re-enabled logging of forests that had only months > earlier > been protected, or assumed to be protected by the nationally > publicized spotted owl protection effort. Once things quieted down, > he reopened logging under another name. The roadless area > protection > that Clinton is credited with was passes as an executive order > during > his last days as president so that he wouldn't have to deal with > it's > negative political impacts against rich lobbyists until after the > election. At least through the end of Bush's first term, more old > growth forest was logged during the Clinton years. With what was > reported at the time, you would think that in Bush's first term, he > would have surpassed the Clinton era's logging of old growth forests > in the west. A quick internet search came up with this text from > that time: > http://www.fireecology.org/research/post_rider_salvage.htm > > There is NO right party. Both of them really stink!!! Stop the > superiority complex attitudes and open your minds a little.. Geez! > Given the lessons of the past, and all the rhetoric coming from the > current administration, I won't believe that Obama is any better > until > he accomplishes something significant without continuing to ruin our > economy. (Yes, continuing down the path of economic > self-distruction > of ALL the recent past presidents during my lifetime.) > > Paul J. > > > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 8:56 AM, Ariel <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote: > > "I could say the same about CNN and the other networks" > > No, you couldn't. Only Faux News blatantly makes things up. > The > rest simply confuse 'balance' for objectivity. > > > /Lin/ > / > > / > > > --- On *Tue, 12/22/09, Will Fell /<[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>>/* > wrote: > > > From: Will Fell <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>>> > Subject: [ENTS] Re: A little story > To: "ENTSTrees" <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>>> > Date: Tuesday, December 22, 2009, 9:49 AM > > I too am a conservative and an environmentalist. I could say > the same > about CNN and the other networks which are nothing more > than the > publicity arm of the current administration. Ed makes a > good point > about the NRA and if you look at the current enviromental > groups THAT > REALLY do make a difference, they hew somewhat to the > same narrow > focus. > > On Dec 21, 10:12 pm, Barry Caselli > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > > <http://us.mc562.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > >> > wrote: > You say "Fox Network". Are you referring to the local Fox > affiliate, or The Fox News Channel? The Fox News Channel is > one of my all-time favorite channels. > > --- On Mon, 12/21/09, Lee Frelich <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]> > > <http://us.mc562.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]>> > wrote: > > From: Lee Frelich <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]> > > <http://us.mc562.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]>> > Subject: Re: [ENTS] A little story > To: [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]> > > <http://us.mc562.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > > Date: Monday, December 21, 2009, 5:55 PM > > Bob: > > Similar thing happened to me at the Buick dealer in > Minneapolis two > weeks ago, except the TV was set on Fox network. I had no > idea that TV > was such irrational nonsense. If I though it would do any > good, I would > write in and tell the FCC that Fox should not be > relicensed > to broadcast > when their current license expires. > > Lee > > > > > > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > > <http://us.mc562.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> > wrote: > ENTS, > > Back when I was younger, before my hair turned gray and > starting > falling out, I imagined how I might recognize the > onset of > decline > into old age with its attendant feelings of > powerlessness > and the > eventual oblivion? > > This morning I think I discovered the metric needed, > while > waiting for > my car to be serviced at the local Buick dealer. It > was a > little too > raw to go outside and wander around looking at > trees, so I > stuck it > out in the waiting room, which meant I was exposed > to the > T.V. set. > Game shows. Horror of horrors. Two little old ladies had > copped the > set were glued to the wins and losses. They discouraged > any thoughts > of channel changing with piercing looks. I audibly > mumbled my > displeasure, but wasn't about to chance getting > swatted by > an old > lady's purse.. I sullenly set through the hoopla. > > Game shows. What better measure of mental decline than a > tally of the > number of hours spent watching giddy contestants > alternately scream > and bawl and confirm our addiction to materialism. Where > do we cast > our ballots for euthanasia? > > Bob > > -- > Eastern Native Tree > Societyhttp://www.nativetreesociety.org > <http://www.nativetreesociety.org> > <http://www.nativetreesociety.org/> > Send email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]> > > <http://us.mc562.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > > Visit this group > athttp://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en > <http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en> > To unsubscribe send email to > [email protected] > <mailto:entstrees%[email protected]> > > <http://us.mc562.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > > > -- > Eastern Native Tree > Societyhttp://www.nativetreesociety.org > <http://www.nativetreesociety.org> > <http://www.nativetreesociety.org/> > Send email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]> > > <http://us.mc562.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > > Visit this group > athttp://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en > <http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en> > To unsubscribe send email to > [email protected] > <mailto:entstrees%[email protected]> > > <http://us.mc562.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > >- > Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - > > -- > Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org > <http://www.nativetreesociety.org/> > Send email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]> > > <http://us.mc562.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > > > Visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en > To unsubscribe send email to > [email protected] > <mailto:entstrees%[email protected]> > > <http://us.mc562.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > > > -- > Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org > Send email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> > Visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en > To unsubscribe send email to > [email protected] > <mailto:entstrees%[email protected]> > <mailto:entstrees%[email protected] > <mailto:entstrees%[email protected]>> > > > -- > Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org > Send email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en > To unsubscribe send email to > [email protected] > <mailto:entstrees%[email protected]> > > -- > Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org > Send email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en > To unsubscribe send email to > [email protected] > <mailto:entstrees%[email protected]> > > > -- > Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org > Send email to [email protected] > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en > To unsubscribe send email to [email protected] > > -- > Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org > Send email to [email protected] > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en > To unsubscribe send email to [email protected] > > > > > > -- > Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org > Send email to [email protected] > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en > To unsubscribe send email to [email protected] > > > -- > Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org > Send email to [email protected] > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en > To unsubscribe send email to [email protected] -- Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org Send email to [email protected] Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en To unsubscribe send email to [email protected]
