Oh, you're right :-\ empty async functions return a promise, interesting...
On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Michael Lewis <m...@lew42.com> wrote:
> > async functions create a new promise for you upon every invocation,
> which you resolve via `await`, but that's all invisible in the background
>
> Is that correct? I thought async functions simply await promises. `await
> something()` works because something() returns a promise. But is there a
> promise created "invisibly" every time you invoke an async function?
>
> On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 2:13 PM, Naveen Chawla <naveen.c...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Correct, `for..of` instead of `forEach`
>>
>> On Wed, 8 Nov 2017 at 01:21 Logan Smyth <loganfsm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> A nit, but that would have to be `for (const move of moves) await
>>> doMoveAsync()`
>>> since the `forEach` callback is a normal function.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 11:47 AM, Naveen Chawla <naveen.c...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> ... that should be `await doMoveAsync()`
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 8 Nov 2017 at 01:16 Naveen Chawla <naveen.c...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> async functions create a new promise for you upon every invocation,
>>>>> which you resolve via `await`, but that's all invisible in the background.
>>>>> It's basically:
>>>>>
>>>>> async function doMovesAsync(){
>>>>> moves.forEach(
>>>>> move=>{
>>>>> doMoveAsync(); //another async function
>>>>> }
>>>>> );
>>>>> }
>>>>>
>>>>> ...so you can do regular programming, in async world. This is why I
>>>>> believe it's more powerful than observables, thereby making them
>>>>> redundant.
>>>>>
>>>>> When I say branching into multiple outputs, I do mean creating new
>>>>> data that leaves the original data untouched.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 7 Nov 2017 at 20:57 Michael Lewis <m...@lew42.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, if you've made it this far, I think it's worth mentioning that
>>>>>> these async strings are basically all you need for a realtime file
>>>>>> system.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> File("newFile.ext").append(File("fileA"), File("fileB"),
>>>>>> ...).transpile().save();
>>>>>> // --> automatically watches, all inputs (fileA, fileB, etc), caches
>>>>>> unchanged files, reapplies transforms, writes to file...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Webpack and gulp are basically async plugin systems w/ transforms.
>>>>>> They're just way too complicated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Simplify all the things.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And while we're at it, why not make a realtime version control
>>>>>> system? Not just for files, but for all the things (any data structure
>>>>>> inside the app). For example, if we have variable strings, could we
>>>>>> enable
>>>>>> a history on it? Instead of branching onto a separate entity/value,
>>>>>> could
>>>>>> we branch *within *the string itself, so that we have an entire *verrsion
>>>>>> tree *for any value?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *What are the fundamental data structures in computer science?*
>>>>>> The Boolean, obviously. The Integer. The String.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why not a realtime boolean? I suppose that's just a boolean + change
>>>>>> events. What is a "change event"? Just an array of functions. But
>>>>>> JavaScript functions are an abstract concept (compared to processor
>>>>>> instructions). What do functions look like at the processor level?
>>>>>> They're compiled with all the dependent values, right? How many
>>>>>> processor
>>>>>> ticks does the average line of JavaScript use?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I feel like all languages could boil down to a very small set of
>>>>>> fundamental data structures, and maybe a slightly larger set of
>>>>>> specialized
>>>>>> data structures.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What are the different types of circuits in a process? I understand
>>>>>> (roughly) the basic logic gates, but is there specialized circuitry for
>>>>>> specialized data structures? What if those fundamental data structures
>>>>>> were optimized at the circuitry level?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What if we can optimize our programs to run as nearly instantly as
>>>>>> possible? Most scripts are *mostly *instant - at least, there's no
>>>>>> external input. For any process that's *nearly* instant, couldn't
>>>>>> it actually be instant? In other words, 1 tick of the processor? Load
>>>>>> up
>>>>>> all the registers with the necessary values, and shine the light down
>>>>>> those
>>>>>> transistors/logic gates, so that we arrive at our result, instantly?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I really feel like this is possible. Like I mentioned earlier, I've
>>>>>> never compiled a lick of code in my life, and have very little
>>>>>> understanding of those things. But from my sense of JavaScript, it's far
>>>>>> from instant. How many processor ticks per line of JavaScript code, on
>>>>>> average?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is anyone still listening?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 8:47 AM, Michael Lewis <m...@lew42.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not experienced in async/await enough to know what "using async
>>>>>>> functions to process [streams]" would look like.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You would have to create a new promise for every iteration? Even if
>>>>>>> performance isn't an issue, it just doesn't make sense to me. It's
>>>>>>> like,
>>>>>>> you could use `obj.value = "my string"` instead of `var myString = "my
>>>>>>> string"`, and it will work. And the performance difference is
>>>>>>> negligible.
>>>>>>> But, it just doesn't make as much sense...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Branching vs Mutation*
>>>>>>> The point you bring up regarding "branching the stream into multiple
>>>>>>> outputs" is another fundamental concept in programming (that I'm still
>>>>>>> trying to wrap my head around). Basically, does an operation (aka a
>>>>>>> method) operate on the original data, or fork/branch, preserving the
>>>>>>> original, and creating a clone to apply the transform to.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For example, arr.push() manipulates (mutates) the original array,
>>>>>>> but arr.slice() branches, giving you a brand new array, leaving the
>>>>>>> underlying array untouched (immutable).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This has always been an area of confusion for me. Which methods are
>>>>>>> mutators, and which are immutable?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Async Strings*
>>>>>>> An interesting away to look at all this async stuff, is to consider
>>>>>>> strings, and their operations (methods), in an asynchronous way. How
>>>>>>> can a
>>>>>>> string be asynchronous? Just let it change over time, and broadcast
>>>>>>> change
>>>>>>> events.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What if you compose a string with several pieces:
>>>>>>> asyncParentStr.append(asyncStrA, asyncStrB, asyncStrC).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Each asyncString can have change events, and will propagate changes
>>>>>>> to anyone depending on it. asyncStrB.set("new value") will trigger
>>>>>>> asyncParentStr.change() event.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I feel like this is fundamental functionality that is lacking from
>>>>>>> JavaScript. Now that we have `const`, shouldn't `var` automatically
>>>>>>> set up
>>>>>>> change events for that "var"?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Async transforms*
>>>>>>> But lets say we do asyncParentStr.append(asyncStrA,
>>>>>>> asyncStrB.replace("hello", "goodbye"), asyncStrC).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now we have the question: do we want this .replace() to be a "live"
>>>>>>> transform? When we asyncStrB.set("hello world"), does it re-apply the
>>>>>>> replace? I think there are many use cases for both: mutate the original
>>>>>>> asyncStrB, so that all references to this value also exhibit the
>>>>>>> transform. And also the alternative, the immutable, branching kind of
>>>>>>> transform, where you don't mutate the underlying value, and instead are
>>>>>>> branching.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This concept is also the core concept of version control: do we
>>>>>>> continue down the same path, or branch off?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *GUIs will prevail*
>>>>>>> You can try and create different methods ( ._replace() vs
>>>>>>> .$replace() ) to represent transform vs branching (I don't know which
>>>>>>> looks
>>>>>>> more like which). But, in the end, the GUI will prevail. Artists can
>>>>>>> dream about how to envision these version trees, and perfect the
>>>>>>> GUI/experience. The code interface just can't compete with GUI, in the
>>>>>>> long run.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I suppose, its necessarily true that the API preceeds the GUI.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> API before GUI, but GUI all the things. That's my new motto.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *What if variables were automatically async, and referential? *(As
>>>>>>> opposed to `const` that could be the immutable flavor)
>>>>>>> var str = "hello world";
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> str.replace("hello", "goodbye"); // transforms `str` var "in place"
>>>>>>> log(str) // "goodbye world"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> str = "hello cruel world"; // transform is reapplied
>>>>>>> log(str) // "goodbye cruel world"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This will never happen, but it shows the fundamental difference in
>>>>>>> logic. Both are logical/useful...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 8:08 AM, Naveen Chawla <naveen.c...@gmail.com
>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For me the future is async functions (the present actually). I
>>>>>>>> asked a question about possible support for async streams / observables
>>>>>>>> here: https://esdiscuss.org/topic/stream-async-await and I
>>>>>>>> realized that my use case was much better served by just using async
>>>>>>>> functions to process each input value in the stream.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think using async functions is much more powerful than
>>>>>>>> "observables", since it allows you to easily branch the stream off into
>>>>>>>> multiple outputs etc. Using Promise.all etc. is also trivial to use
>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>> desired, etc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Furthermore, async functions allow while/for loops that include
>>>>>>>> other async function calls, and this looks like programming with
>>>>>>>> regular
>>>>>>>> functions, so it's trivial to set up asynchronous iteration, and/or
>>>>>>>> infinite event processing, etc., even without the new "async iteration"
>>>>>>>> proposal.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 7 Nov 2017 at 17:25 Michael Lewis <m...@lew42.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The email wasn't about my kids, and you don't have to read it
>>>>>>>>> (duh). If your time is so valuable, maybe you shouldn't be picking
>>>>>>>>> fights
>>>>>>>>> with rambling parents.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Where is the list of approved topics?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 5:44 AM, Bob Myers <r...@gol.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'm confused. You don't have time to read "The General Theory of
>>>>>>>>>> Reactivity", yet (1) you have time to write this long, rambling
>>>>>>>>>> email about
>>>>>>>>>> your kids, and (2) expect people on this mailing list to spend their
>>>>>>>>>> valuable time reading it?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Please stay on topic for the list.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 4:48 PM, Michael Lewis <m...@lew42.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Good morning JavaScript world,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe I'll start my mornings with a cup of coffee, and a
>>>>>>>>>>> discussion prompt. We'll see how long it lasts. It's 4:39am. I
>>>>>>>>>>> live in
>>>>>>>>>>> Aurora, Illinois, about an hour outside of Chicago. My kids will
>>>>>>>>>>> wake up
>>>>>>>>>>> in an hour or two, so I don't have long, and should be working on my
>>>>>>>>>>> framework anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> *So much asynchrony*
>>>>>>>>>>> There are callbacks, promises, async/await. We have streams in
>>>>>>>>>>> node.js. There are libraries like RxJS for Observables (that are
>>>>>>>>>>> basically
>>>>>>>>>>> streams?).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What's the end game? What will our children's children be
>>>>>>>>>>> learning in 100 years? Let's reduce these pieces, distilling them
>>>>>>>>>>> into
>>>>>>>>>>> their simplest components.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This <https://esdiscuss.org/topic/promises-vs-streams> is an
>>>>>>>>>>> interesting thread (from es-discuss) regarding asynchrony, which
>>>>>>>>>>> references
>>>>>>>>>>> Kris Kowal's General Theory of Reactivity
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://github.com/kriskowal/gtor/>, which is too long for me
>>>>>>>>>>> to dig into at this point in my life.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The disappointing part, is that this community (who has mastered
>>>>>>>>>>> asynchrony) doesn't feel like there are any shortcomings, and so we
>>>>>>>>>>> continue onward without fixing the mess.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Oh, and generators? I don't fully understand these things. Do
>>>>>>>>>>> they work with promises? Can you use a generator to process a
>>>>>>>>>>> stream? How
>>>>>>>>>>> do generators work with or compare to async/await? Who knows...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I think it's safe to say that asynchrony is a confusing mess. *But
>>>>>>>>>>> it shouldn't be. *The concept of "do it now" or "do it later"
>>>>>>>>>>> is as easy as 123.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Recently, I read through Jake Archibald's JavaScript Promises:
>>>>>>>>>>> an Introduction
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://developers.google.com/web/fundamentals/primers/promises>.
>>>>>>>>>>> I really enjoy Jake Archibald's writing. He makes JavaScript less
>>>>>>>>>>> boring.
>>>>>>>>>>> But wow, understanding promises in their full depth is really
>>>>>>>>>>> complicated.
>>>>>>>>>>> Sure, a simple promise is more or less a callback, easy peasy. But
>>>>>>>>>>> once
>>>>>>>>>>> you start composing parallel and series tasks, add error handling,
>>>>>>>>>>> and try
>>>>>>>>>>> to understand the control flow - it's a lot.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I feel like Promises could automatically *render a diagram *when
>>>>>>>>>>> using them. In Jake's very practical example (request a list of
>>>>>>>>>>> chapters,
>>>>>>>>>>> load all chapters in parallel, then append them to the page in
>>>>>>>>>>> order)
>>>>>>>>>>> there's a lot going on, to say the least. Wouldn't it be nice to
>>>>>>>>>>> see a
>>>>>>>>>>> diagram of these tasks? A timeline maybe?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Imagine debugging a complex sequence of async actions. And you
>>>>>>>>>>> have no idea which piece is failing. Using the console to log
>>>>>>>>>>> values, and
>>>>>>>>>>> trying to step through the code with the debugger are two of your
>>>>>>>>>>> basic
>>>>>>>>>>> approaches. But honestly, neither of these really *show *you
>>>>>>>>>>> what's going on.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Chrome Dev Tools has an awesome timeline GUI. I've spent an
>>>>>>>>>>> hour here or there tinkering with it, but can't make sense of a lot
>>>>>>>>>>> of it.
>>>>>>>>>>> There are 100's if not 1000's of very generic blocks that show up
>>>>>>>>>>> on the
>>>>>>>>>>> timeline, that don't clearly identify what they are. And I don't
>>>>>>>>>>> believe
>>>>>>>>>>> there's any way to visualize promises on this timeline.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> *The problem with Promises*
>>>>>>>>>>> I want to create a file system framework for node. I'd like to
>>>>>>>>>>> make watching the files for changes a default feature. The problem
>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>> promises, is that you can't re-resolve them.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So I'm basically left with streams, or plain old callbacks. Or
>>>>>>>>>>> trying to recreate the promises every time they resolve...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What's the end game? 100 years from now?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Frankly, this is the most important question. I feel like if we
>>>>>>>>>>> take a step back, and try to solve these problems for the long
>>>>>>>>>>> term, we'd
>>>>>>>>>>> be better off.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And so, it's 5:15. Well done, Michael. Well done.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> *The Future*
>>>>>>>>>>> If anyone has made it this far, I'm going to tell you a quick
>>>>>>>>>>> summary of my plan:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 1. make an ultra-simple web framework (almost done?)
>>>>>>>>>>> 2. use that framework to make a CMS to kill WordPress
>>>>>>>>>>> 3. turn that CMS into a web OS that does everything a real
>>>>>>>>>>> OS can do, only better
>>>>>>>>>>> 4. turn that web OS into a real, bare metal OS
>>>>>>>>>>> 5. make lots of amazing (useful) software (like photoshop,
>>>>>>>>>>> blender, after effects, CAD, etc)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Software development is sluggish. Most software is painful to
>>>>>>>>>>> use. Windows, Photoshop/Illustrator, many websites... Open source
>>>>>>>>>>> software doesn't get the funding/momentum it needs to really kill
>>>>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>>>>> proprietary alternatives. We need to change that. I'm going to
>>>>>>>>>>> change
>>>>>>>>>>> that.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Stay tuned.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> es-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> es-discuss@mozilla.org
>>>>>>>>>>> https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> es-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>> es-discuss@mozilla.org
>>>>>>>>> https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> es-discuss mailing list
>>>> es-discuss@mozilla.org
>>>> https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>
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