Sorry, Jeff I typo'ed that HOC should be HPC - high precision coulometry http://www.dal.ca/diff/dahn/publications.html http://www.novonix.ca/ Condensed explanation, lecture by Dr. Jeff Dahn: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxP0Cu00sZs
On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 10:00 AM, Jeff Major via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote: > Hello Michael, > Some companies do not pay a lot of attention to their website and rely on > their marketing department. EnerDel is an OEM supplier and I suspect not > interested in attracting hobbyists via the internet. > The product, cell to complete battery systems, is made in the Indiana > facilities. There were 2 plants operating when I toured last, about 2 > years ago. One place made the cells starting with slurry mix. They were > transferred to the other plant to complete formation and packaging or > assembly into modules. They are LiNMC chemistry. They make one basic cell > there in several varieties. > The pdf you linked shows 2 cell varieties. The CE175-360 is 17.5Ah and > indicated at 2500 cycles to 80%. The CP160-365 is 16Ah and indicated at > 3000 cycles to 85%. I believe the test procedures can be found by > searching for USCAR Advanced Battery Consortium. I recall having seen a > 4-500 page document on the subject. EnerDel did receive government money > and was a player in that program and the document you linked is in the same > format as information which I've seen from A123, another player in that > program. LG was also, although I've not seen their results. > I can't comment about your pet topic as I don't even know what HOC is. > But EnerDel is about the best best battery available. Most small time > builders would not be able to afford it or have access to it except for > some surplus hitting the market a few years ago. > Regards, > Jeff M > > > On Sunday, March 29, 2015 11:58 PM, Michael Ross < > michael.e.r...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > I wonder why their website is so skimpy, given they seem to be legit. Do > they actually make the cells in the US, or just assemble the packs? > I downloaded the spec sheet. > http://www.enerdel.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Cell-Binder.pdf > What I see in terms of cycle life is not instructive. The product page > says:" > - Durability and low self-discharge; retains greater than 85% of > initial capacity after more than 3,000 cycles at 100% DOD and 30°C" > They cut off charging at 4.1V and call that 100% SOC. They say the > nominal voltage is 3.6V. This sounds like a LiFePO4 voltage. But, it is a > guess - they don't reveal it. > LFP is particularly vulnerable to deterioration at lower temperatures than > other cell chemistries. At 35°C (104°F) LFP starts to have accelerating > deterioration. It would be interesting to see how close to the 45°C line > that they do show is to the 35°C line that they don't show. The best of > all information would be a family of curves that illustrates the region > where deterioration accelerates. > The graph on the spec sheet shows a 30°C curve that has only ~75% of > capacity at 3000 cycles, not 85%. So I am confused about that > information. > > I am going to digress to my pet topic here, cell testing: > They have a C/2 charge and discharge rate. So the cycles are 1 hour start > to finish. They don't indicate a dwell time at the max SOC. So they take > it up and immediately bring it back down. Also the test equipment must be > capable of sensing the decrease in capacity very precisely. Not many > people have this equipment, yet. If understand why HOC is better and we > push for it , then eventually it will supplant what is used now. The video > I keep linking to- Dr. Dahn discusses this in some detail. > If high precision coulometry (HPC) is used, then you have better chance of > knowing about the cells true durability in service. WIth HPC you can have > far fewer cycles and detect damage if you just hold at the fully charged > state and temperature - nothing much else matters. But, if the idea is > to show lots of cycles, not actually evaluate how NOT to operate the cells, > then you run cycles like they have (and most everyone else in the > business). > I am not say they are bad guys, but pointing out the problem with the bad > old ways of testing cells. > The problem that kills Li ion cells is the fully charged state > a coinciding with higher temperature. The mechanism of damage is achieving > a reaction activation energy when the cell is fully charged. Below that > temperature there is far less of a problem. To evaluate the cell quality > of design and manufacture you actually need to see at what conditions the > cells deteriorate. > You could take the same physical cells and use > different electrolyte packages, test them with 1 hour cycles and see no > difference, but with HPC and long dwell times you could > tell which combination is better. This is where the industry need to go. > Mike > > On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 10:31 PM, Jeff Major via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> > wrote: > > Hello EVDL, > > EnerDel makes a great cell and battery here in the USA. I have been to > their factory in the Indianapolis area many times. I use the product just > about every day. I can write more but want to see if this message makes to > thru to the board. > Regards, > Jeff Major > > > > On Sunday, March 29, 2015 9:09 PM, HARSHA GODAVARI via EV < > ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote: > > > Their contact info shows their location as,"Greenfield .Ind" May be > someone in the vicinity can pay them a visit. > > regards > hg > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Michael Ross via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org> > To: "Mike" <mska...@cox.net>, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" < > ev@lists.evdl.org> > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 12:09:01 AM > Subject: Re: [EVDL] ENERDEL Battery Experiences > > Mike, > > Caveat emptor. > > A US company, but I can't see any information on the website that tells me > they have a good cell, modules or packs. It is rather uninformative. I > can't tell if they are more than an outlet for a non-US company. > > To me the most important thing to know is what they cells are made of, and > have they had useful life testing; which is to say high precision > coulometry. WIthout that knowledge there I very little about the life spec > that is comforting. This will be hard to get from any manufacturer because > it is new. But the usual life testing is very weak. If you find out more > about the actual chemistry then you could look into that. Kick it around > on thes forum. > > They say nothing about their US facilities. If I had to guess they are > made overseas and branded ENRDEL. I would want to know more about that > manufacturing. > > They do not cite a single customer application. They talk about how they > could do these applications, but don't identify any actual uses. > > There is only one actual photograph of a cell, module, pack, or BMS. All > CAD renderings - not a good sign. > http://www.enerdel.com/se175-384-a-secure/ > shows a completly generif metal box with lifting eyes. Not even and > ENERDAL log. > > Call me suspicious. > > They might be an outlet for a perfectly competent Chinese manufacturer, or > who knows what. > > Maybe you can get them to show you the beef. Maybe some testimonials? A > happy customer you can call? > > > Mike Ross > > > > On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Mike via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote: > > > I am in the process of deciding what type of Lithium batteries to use. > > Been through all the retoric on CALB, etc. Read the used Nissan battery > > threads and am leaning toward ENERDEL batteries for two reasons,, (1) > They > > are a US company and (2) the discharge curve seems to be a steady > declining > > ramp with a ‘soft’ end point. EVOLVE Electrics is also very helpful. I am > > well aware the company had a rough few years but it looks like they have > > recovered. Looking for a 144 volt nominal/168V max system and 200 AHrs. > > So…does anyone have any solid experience using ENERDEL batteries? > > _______________________________________________ > > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > > > > > > -- > To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. > Thomas A. Edison > <http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html> > > A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. > *Warren Buffet* > > Michael E. Ross > (919) 585-6737 Land > (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google > Phone > (919) 631-1451 Cell > > michael.e.r...@gmail.com > <michael.e.r...@gmail.com> > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150329/30d16df2/attachment.htm > > > _______________________________________________ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150329/46f9f3c4/attachment.htm > > > _______________________________________________ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150330/1cfa726c/attachment.htm > > > _______________________________________________ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > > > > > -- > To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.Thomas A. Edison > > A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.Warren Buffet > Michael E. Ross(919) 585-6737 Land(919) 576-0824 Google Phone(919) > 631-1451 Cell > > michael.e.r...@gmail.com > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150330/7f2d5cc2/attachment.htm > > > _______________________________________________ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison <http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html> A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com <michael.e.r...@gmail.com> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150330/cf3bb683/attachment.htm> _______________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
