BOL = beginning of life. EOL = end of life.
;-/
On Monday, March 30, 2015 12:17 PM, Michael Ross
<michael.e.r...@gmail.com> wrote:
In the spec sheet I downloaded from ENERDEL are graphs with the y axis labeled
"Discharge Capacity (% of BOL capacity)" vs # cycles.
I haven't been able to find out what that means. It is not in the USCAR
publica tion of abbreviations, it is not in the Handbook of Batteries. Anyone
have an idea?
Mike
On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 11:13 AM, Michael Ross <michael.e.r...@gmail.com> wrote:
Sorry, Jeff I typo'ed that HOC should be HPC - high precision coulometry
http://www.dal.ca/diff/dahn/publications.html
http://www.novonix.ca/
Condensed explanation, lecture by Dr. Jeff
Dahn:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxP0Cu00sZs
On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 10:00 AM, Jeff Major via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
Hello Michael,
Some companies do not pay a lot of attention to their website and rely on their
marketing department. EnerDel is an OEM supplier and I suspect not interested
in attracting hobbyists via the internet.
The product, cell to complete battery systems, is made in the Indiana
facilities. There were 2 plants operating when I toured last, about 2 years
ago. One place made the cells starting with slurry mix. They were transferred
to the other plant to complete formation and packaging or assembly into
modules. They are LiNMC chemistry. They make one basic cell there in several
varieties.
The pdf you linked shows 2 cell varieties. The CE175-360 is 17.5Ah and
indicated at 2500 cycles to 80%. The CP160-365 is 16Ah and indicated at 3000
cycles to 85%. I believe the test procedures can be found by searching for
USCAR Advanced Battery Consortium. I recall having seen a 4-500 page document
on the subject. EnerDel did receive government money and was a player in that
program and the document you linked is in the same format as information which
I've seen from A123, another player in that program. LG was also, although
I've not seen their results.
I can't comment about your pet topic as I don't even know what HOC is. But
EnerDel is about the best best battery available. Most small time builders
would not be able to afford it or have access to it except for some surplus
hitting the market a few years ago.
Regards,
Jeff M
On Sunday, March 29, 2015 11:58 PM, Michael Ross
<michael.e.r...@gmail.com> wrote:
I wonder why their website is so skimpy, given they seem to be legit. Do they
actually make the cells in the US, or just assemble the packs?
I downloaded the spec sheet.
http://www.enerdel.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Cell-Binder.pdf
What I see in terms of cycle life is not instructive. The product page says:"
- Durability and low self-discharge; retains greater than 85% of initial
capacity after more than 3,000 cycles at 100% DOD and 30°C"
They cut off charging at 4.1V and call that 100% SOC. They say the nominal
voltage is 3.6V. This sounds like a LiFePO4 voltage. But, it is a guess -
they don't reveal it.
LFP is particularly vulnerable to deterioration at lower temperatures than
other cell chemistries. At 35°C (104°F) LFP starts to have accelerating
deterioration. It would be interesting to see how close to the 45°C line that
they do show is to the 35°C line that they don't show. The best of all
information would be a family of curves that illustrates the region where
deterioration accelerates.
The graph on the spec sheet shows a 30°C curve that has only ~75% of capacity
at 3000 cycles, not 85%. So I am confused about that information.
I am going to digress to my pet topic here, cell testing:
They have a C/2 charge and discharge rate. So the cycles are 1 hour start to
finish. They don't indicate a dwell time at the max SOC. So they take it up
and immediately bring it back down. Also the test equipment must be capable
of sensing the decrease in capacity very precisely. Not many people have this
equipment, yet. If understand why HOC is better and we push for it , then
eventually it will supplant what is used now. The video I keep linking to- Dr.
Dahn discusses this in some detail.
If high precision coulometry (HPC) is used, then you have better chance of
knowing about the cells true durability in service. WIth HPC you can have far
fewer cycles and detect damage if you just hold at the fully charged state
and temperature - nothing much else matters. But, if the idea is to show
lots of cycles, not actually evaluate how NOT to operate the cells, then you
run cycles like they have (and most everyone else in the business).
I am not say they are bad guys, but pointing out the problem with the bad old
ways of testing cells.
The problem that kills Li ion cells is the fully charged state a coinciding
with higher temperature. The mechanism of damage is achieving a reaction
activation energy when the cell is fully charged. Below that temperature there
is far less of a problem. To evaluate the cell quality of design and
manufacture you actually need to see at what conditions the cells deteriorate.
You could take the same physical cells and use different electrolyte packages,
test them with 1 hour cycles and see no difference, but with HPC and long dwell
times you could tell which combination is better. This is where the industry
need to go.
Mike
On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 10:31 PM, Jeff Major via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
Hello EVDL,
EnerDel makes a great cell and battery here in the USA. I have been to their
factory in the Indianapolis area many times. I use the product just about
every day. I can write more but want to see if this message makes to thru to
the board.
Regards,
Jeff Major
On Sunday, March 29, 2015 9:09 PM, HARSHA GODAVARI via EV
<ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
Their contact info shows their location as,"Greenfield .Ind" May be someone in
the vicinity can pay them a visit.
regards
hg
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Ross via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
To: "Mike" <mska...@cox.net>, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 12:09:01 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ENERDEL Battery Experiences
Mike,
Caveat emptor.
A US company, but I can't see any information on the website that tells me
they have a good cell, modules or packs. It is rather uninformative. I
can't tell if they are more than an outlet for a non-US company.
To me the most important thing to know is what they cells are made of, and
have they had useful life testing; which is to say high precision
coulometry. WIthout that knowledge there I very little about the life spec
that is comforting. This will be hard to get from any manufacturer because
it is new. But the usual life testing is very weak. If you find out more
about the actual chemistry then you could look into that. Kick it around
on thes forum.
They say nothing about their US facilities. If I had to guess they are
made overseas and branded ENRDEL. I would want to know more about that
manufacturing.
They do not cite a single customer application. They talk about how they
could do these applications, but don't identify any actual uses.
There is only one actual photograph of a cell, module, pack, or BMS. All
CAD renderings - not a good sign. http://www.enerdel.com/se175-384-a-secure/
shows a completly generif metal box with lifting eyes. Not even and
ENERDAL log.
Call me suspicious.
They might be an outlet for a perfectly competent Chinese manufacturer, or
who knows what.
Maybe you can get them to show you the beef. Maybe some testimonials? A
happy customer you can call?
Mike Ross
On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Mike via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> I am in the process of deciding what type of Lithium batteries to use.
> Been through all the retoric on CALB, etc. Read the used Nissan battery
> threads and am leaning toward ENERDEL batteries for two reasons,, (1) They
> are a US company and (2) the discharge curve seems to be a steady declining
> ramp with a ‘soft’ end point. EVOLVE Electrics is also very helpful. I am
> well aware the company had a rough few years but it looks like they have
> recovered. Looking for a 144 volt nominal/168V max system and 200 AHrs.
> So…does anyone have any solid experience using ENERDEL batteries?
> _______________________________________________
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