BOL = beginning of life, perhaps? Sent from my iPhone
> On Mar 30, 2015, at 11:16, Michael Ross via EV <[email protected]> wrote: > > In the spec sheet I downloaded from ENERDEL are graphs with the y axis > labeled "Discharge Capacity (% of BOL capacity)" vs # cycles. > > I haven't been able to find out what that means. It is not in the USCAR > publica tion of abbreviations, it is not in the Handbook of Batteries. > Anyone have an idea? > > Mike > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 11:13 AM, Michael Ross <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Sorry, Jeff I typo'ed that HOC should be HPC - high precision coulometry >> >> http://www.dal.ca/diff/dahn/publications.html >> http://www.novonix.ca/ >> Condensed explanation, lecture by Dr. Jeff Dahn: >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxP0Cu00sZs >> >> >> On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 10:00 AM, Jeff Major via EV <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> Hello Michael, >>> Some companies do not pay a lot of attention to their website and rely on >>> their marketing department. EnerDel is an OEM supplier and I suspect not >>> interested in attracting hobbyists via the internet. >>> The product, cell to complete battery systems, is made in the Indiana >>> facilities. There were 2 plants operating when I toured last, about 2 >>> years ago. One place made the cells starting with slurry mix. They were >>> transferred to the other plant to complete formation and packaging or >>> assembly into modules. They are LiNMC chemistry. They make one basic cell >>> there in several varieties. >>> The pdf you linked shows 2 cell varieties. The CE175-360 is 17.5Ah and >>> indicated at 2500 cycles to 80%. The CP160-365 is 16Ah and indicated at >>> 3000 cycles to 85%. I believe the test procedures can be found by >>> searching for USCAR Advanced Battery Consortium. I recall having seen a >>> 4-500 page document on the subject. EnerDel did receive government money >>> and was a player in that program and the document you linked is in the same >>> format as information which I've seen from A123, another player in that >>> program. LG was also, although I've not seen their results. >>> I can't comment about your pet topic as I don't even know what HOC is. >>> But EnerDel is about the best best battery available. Most small time >>> builders would not be able to afford it or have access to it except for >>> some surplus hitting the market a few years ago. >>> Regards, >>> Jeff M >>> >>> >>> On Sunday, March 29, 2015 11:58 PM, Michael Ross < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> >>> I wonder why their website is so skimpy, given they seem to be legit. >>> Do they actually make the cells in the US, or just assemble the packs? >>> I downloaded the spec sheet. >>> http://www.enerdel.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Cell-Binder.pdf >>> What I see in terms of cycle life is not instructive. The product page >>> says:" >>> - Durability and low self-discharge; retains greater than 85% of >>> initial capacity after more than 3,000 cycles at 100% DOD and 30°C" >>> They cut off charging at 4.1V and call that 100% SOC. They say the >>> nominal voltage is 3.6V. This sounds like a LiFePO4 voltage. But, it is a >>> guess - they don't reveal it. >>> LFP is particularly vulnerable to deterioration at lower temperatures >>> than other cell chemistries. At 35°C (104°F) LFP starts to have >>> accelerating deterioration. It would be interesting to see how close to >>> the 45°C line that they do show is to the 35°C line that they don't show. >>> The best of all information would be a family of curves that illustrates >>> the region where deterioration accelerates. >>> The graph on the spec sheet shows a 30°C curve that has only ~75% of >>> capacity at 3000 cycles, not 85%. So I am confused about that >>> information. >>> >>> I am going to digress to my pet topic here, cell testing: >>> They have a C/2 charge and discharge rate. So the cycles are 1 hour start >>> to finish. They don't indicate a dwell time at the max SOC. So they take >>> it up and immediately bring it back down. Also the test equipment must be >>> capable of sensing the decrease in capacity very precisely. Not many >>> people have this equipment, yet. If understand why HOC is better and we >>> push for it , then eventually it will supplant what is used now. The video >>> I keep linking to- Dr. Dahn discusses this in some detail. >>> If high precision coulometry (HPC) is used, then you have better chance >>> of knowing about the cells true durability in service. WIth HPC you can >>> have far fewer cycles and detect damage if you just hold at the fully >>> charged state and temperature - nothing much else matters. But, if the >>> idea is to show lots of cycles, not actually evaluate how NOT to operate >>> the cells, then you run cycles like they have (and most everyone else in >>> the business). >>> I am not say they are bad guys, but pointing out the problem with the bad >>> old ways of testing cells. >>> The problem that kills Li ion cells is the fully charged state >>> a coinciding with higher temperature. The mechanism of damage is achieving >>> a reaction activation energy when the cell is fully charged. Below that >>> temperature there is far less of a problem. To evaluate the cell quality >>> of design and manufacture you actually need to see at what conditions the >>> cells deteriorate. >>> You could take the same physical cells and use >>> different electrolyte packages, test them with 1 hour cycles and see no >>> difference, but with HPC and long dwell times you could >>> tell which combination is better. This is where the industry need to go. >>> Mike >>> >>> On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 10:31 PM, Jeff Major via EV <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hello EVDL, >>> >>> EnerDel makes a great cell and battery here in the USA. I have been to >>> their factory in the Indianapolis area many times. I use the product just >>> about every day. I can write more but want to see if this message makes to >>> thru to the board. >>> Regards, >>> Jeff Major >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sunday, March 29, 2015 9:09 PM, HARSHA GODAVARI via EV < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Their contact info shows their location as,"Greenfield .Ind" May be >>> someone in the vicinity can pay them a visit. >>> >>> regards >>> hg >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >>> From: "Michael Ross via EV" <[email protected]> >>> To: "Mike" <[email protected]>, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" < >>> [email protected]> >>> Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 12:09:01 AM >>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] ENERDEL Battery Experiences >>> >>> Mike, >>> >>> Caveat emptor. >>> >>> A US company, but I can't see any information on the website that tells me >>> they have a good cell, modules or packs. It is rather uninformative. I >>> can't tell if they are more than an outlet for a non-US company. >>> >>> To me the most important thing to know is what they cells are made of, and >>> have they had useful life testing; which is to say high precision >>> coulometry. WIthout that knowledge there I very little about the life spec >>> that is comforting. This will be hard to get from any manufacturer because >>> it is new. But the usual life testing is very weak. If you find out more >>> about the actual chemistry then you could look into that. Kick it around >>> on thes forum. >>> >>> They say nothing about their US facilities. If I had to guess they are >>> made overseas and branded ENRDEL. I would want to know more about that >>> manufacturing. >>> >>> They do not cite a single customer application. They talk about how they >>> could do these applications, but don't identify any actual uses. >>> >>> There is only one actual photograph of a cell, module, pack, or BMS. All >>> CAD renderings - not a good sign. >>> http://www.enerdel.com/se175-384-a-secure/ >>> shows a completly generif metal box with lifting eyes. Not even and >>> ENERDAL log. >>> >>> Call me suspicious. >>> >>> They might be an outlet for a perfectly competent Chinese manufacturer, or >>> who knows what. >>> >>> Maybe you can get them to show you the beef. Maybe some testimonials? A >>> happy customer you can call? >>> >>> >>> Mike Ross >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Mike via EV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> I am in the process of deciding what type of Lithium batteries to use. >>>> Been through all the retoric on CALB, etc. Read the used Nissan battery >>>> threads and am leaning toward ENERDEL batteries for two reasons,, (1) >>> They >>>> are a US company and (2) the discharge curve seems to be a steady >>> declining >>>> ramp with a ‘soft’ end point. EVOLVE Electrics is also very helpful. I >>> am >>>> well aware the company had a rough few years but it looks like they have >>>> recovered. Looking for a 144 volt nominal/168V max system and 200 AHrs. >>>> So…does anyone have any solid experience using ENERDEL batteries? >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >>>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >>>> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( >>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) >>> >>> >>> -- >>> To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. >>> Thomas A. Edison >>> <http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html> >>> >>> A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. >>> *Warren Buffet* >>> >>> Michael E. Ross >>> (919) 585-6737 Land >>> (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google >>> Phone >>> (919) 631-1451 Cell >>> >>> [email protected] >>> <[email protected]> >>> -------------- next part -------------- >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>> URL: < >>> http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150329/30d16df2/attachment.htm >>> _______________________________________________ >>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >>> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) >>> >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>> URL: < >>> http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150329/46f9f3c4/attachment.htm >>> _______________________________________________ >>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >>> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>> URL: < >>> http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150330/1cfa726c/attachment.htm >>> _______________________________________________ >>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >>> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.Thomas A. Edison >>> >>> A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.Warren Buffet >>> Michael E. Ross(919) 585-6737 Land(919) 576-0824 Google Phone(919) >>> 631-1451 Cell >>> >>> [email protected] >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>> URL: < >>> http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150330/7f2d5cc2/attachment.htm >>> _______________________________________________ >>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >>> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) >> >> >> -- >> To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. >> Thomas A. Edison >> <http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html> >> >> A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. >> *Warren Buffet* >> >> Michael E. Ross >> (919) 585-6737 Land >> (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google >> Phone >> (919) 631-1451 Cell >> >> [email protected] >> <[email protected]> > > > -- > To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. > Thomas A. Edison > <http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html> > > A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. > *Warren Buffet* > > Michael E. Ross > (919) 585-6737 Land > (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone > (919) 631-1451 Cell > > [email protected] > <[email protected]> > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150330/fc23b7f1/attachment.htm> > _______________________________________________ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > _______________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
