Yes, I think that seasonal storage is/will be needed.
Here's another chart, though it has batteries fine for a number of hours.
However, I've also thought it could be days. I'll try to check my other sources.
- Mark
Sent from AltaMail
From: "Peri Hartman" <pe...@kotatko.com> To: ma...@enviropolicy.com CC:
"Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>, "David Nelson"
<gizm...@gmail.com>, brucedp5 <bruce...@operamail.com>, "Electric Vehicle
Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org> Subject: Re[8]: [EVDL] Old packs as
powerwalls @L3 EVSE sites to help smooth out the grid, +more Date: 5/29/16,
4:40 PM
That's a better image. Do we really need seasonal storage for wind and solar?
Maybe we do but I haven't read anything yet. It's not possible to tell from
this graphic on how well batteries would do for storage up to a week. I still
contend - and the graphic seems to concur - that batteries will do as well as
pumped storage for duration.
As for scale, I don't really have a good guess on how much is needed.
According to the chart, and I've read this elsewhere too, pumped storage is
probably the best choice. But used batteries can help and they will be readily
available.
Peri
------ Original Message ------
From: "Mark Abramowitz" <ma...@enviropolicy.com>
To: "Peri Hartman" <pe...@kotatko.com>
Cc: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>; "David Nelson"
<gizm...@gmail.com>; "brucedp5" <bruce...@operamail.com>; "Electric Vehicle
Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: 29-May-16 3:43:26 PM
Subject: Re: Re[6]: [EVDL] Old packs as powerwalls @L3 EVSE sites to help
smooth out the grid, +more
Basically, the chart says that it you compare the various energy storage
technologies, some are well suited for discharging over short time periods and
some for long, and some are well-suited for storing large amounts of energy,
and some smaller.
Here's a similar chart that seems to show up better, and shows where batteries
rank in comparison to other technologies.
Some energy storage can provide seasonal storage, which may be needed in the
future to handle the amount of renewable electricity we expect to be generating.
How this helps.
- Mark
Sent from AltaMail
From: "Peri Hartman" <pe...@kotatko.com> To: ma...@enviropolicy.com CC:
"Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>, "David Nelson"
<gizm...@gmail.com>, brucedp5 <bruce...@operamail.com>, "Electric Vehicle
Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org> Subject: Re[6]: [EVDL] Old packs as
powerwalls @L3 EVSE sites to help smooth out the grid, +more Date: 5/29/16,
3:05 PM
Yeah, that's tiny. Can't read it at all. Please try again.
But, better if you can explain in text in case any other readers wish to see
your answer.
Peri
------ Original Message ------
From: "Mark Abramowitz" <ma...@enviropolicy.com>
To: "Peri Hartman" <pe...@kotatko.com>
Cc: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>; "David Nelson"
<gizm...@gmail.com>; "brucedp5" <bruce...@operamail.com>; "Electric Vehicle
Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: 29-May-16 3:03:20 PM
Subject: Re: Re[4]: [EVDL] Old packs as powerwalls @L3 EVSE sites to help
smooth out the grid, +more
Sorry, misspoke, but this should help (let me know if it's not reproducing
well):
- Mark
Sent from AltaMail
From: "Peri Hartman" <pe...@kotatko.com> To: ma...@enviropolicy.com CC:
"Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>, "David Nelson"
<gizm...@gmail.com>, brucedp5 <bruce...@operamail.com>, "Electric Vehicle
Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org> Subject: Re[4]: [EVDL] Old packs as
powerwalls @L3 EVSE sites to help smooth out the grid, +more Date: 5/29/16,
2:33 PM
Still not clear, at least to me. Batteries - both lead and lithium - seem to
be able to hold a charge for months with little loss. In practice for grid
storage, I would think normally a week would be an unusually long duration.
Peri
------ Original Message ------
From: "Mark Abramowitz" <ma...@enviropolicy.com>
To: "Peri Hartman" <pe...@kotatko.com>
Cc: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>; "David Nelson"
<gizm...@gmail.com>; "brucedp5" <bruce...@operamail.com>; "Electric Vehicle
Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: 29-May-16 2:16:05 PM
Subject: Re: Re[2]: [EVDL] Old packs as powerwalls @L3 EVSE sites to help
smooth out the grid, +more
The limited ability of batteries to store energy for long periods of time.
- Mark Abramowitz (speaking for myself)
President, Community Environmental Services
Senior Advisor and Immediate Past Chairman, California Hydrogen Business Council
Board Consultant to Dr. Joseph K. Lyou, Governor's Appointee to the South Coast
Air Quality Management District Governing Board
Sent from AltaMail
From: "Peri Hartman" <pe...@kotatko.com> To: ma...@enviropolicy.com, "Electric
Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org> CC: "David Nelson"
<gizm...@gmail.com>, brucedp5 <bruce...@operamail.com>, "Electric Vehicle
Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org> Subject: Re[2]: [EVDL] Old packs as
powerwalls @L3 EVSE sites to help smooth out the grid, +more Date: 5/29/16,
2:10 PM
Why do you say "over long periods of time, not so much?" I would agree it's
hard to say whether we can attain enough used batteries for grid scale -
depends on how many EVs are produced and how fast we ramp down mined-resource
energy generation.
Peri
------ Original Message ------
From: "Mark Abramowitz" <ma...@enviropolicy.com>
To: "Peri Hartman" <pe...@kotatko.com>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<ev@lists.evdl.org>
Cc: "David Nelson" <gizm...@gmail.com>; "brucedp5" <bruce...@operamail.com>;
"Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: 29-May-16 2:06:52 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Old packs as powerwalls @L3 EVSE sites to help smooth out
the grid, +more
I agree with you on this...to a point.
For small scale and short time periods, batteries are great. For grid scale
over long periods of time... not so much.
- Mark Abramowitz (speaking for myself)
President, Community Environmental Services
Senior Advisor and Immediate Past Chairman, California Hydrogen Business Council
Board Consultant to Dr. Joseph K. Lyou, Governor's Appointee to the South Coast
Air Quality Management District Governing Board
Sent from AltaMail
From: Peri Hartman via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> To: "David Nelson"
<gizm...@gmail.com>, brucedp5 <bruce...@operamail.com>, "Electric Vehicle
Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Old packs as
powerwalls @L3 EVSE sites to help smooth out the grid, +more Date: 5/29/16,
12:52 PM
I definitely would like to see incentives for installing "depleted"
batteries as solar and wind backup.
We're at a point in time where we can promote both wind and solar while
winding down coal and gas power generation. Clearly, before we can
retire all mined-resource power generation (primarily coal, gas,
nuclear), we need ways to store power for times when wind and solar
don't generate enough.
Soon, we will begin to see a flood of depleted batteries from EVs. With
incentives, the price offered for these used batteries would be higher,
helping to lift the value of used EVs and increasing the demand for new
EVs while at the same time helping to build our wind and solar
infrastructure.
In other words, right now, the need for utility level battery storage is
low. But, gradually, as we retire coal & other plants, we can be
building utility battery storage and boosting EV production and sales.
The sooner, the better, in my opinion.
Peri
------ Original Message ------
From: "David Nelson via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
To: "brucedp5" <bruce...@operamail.com>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion
List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: 29-May-16 12:43:01 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Old packs as powerwalls @L3 EVSE sites to help
smooth out the grid, +more
>On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 1:46 AM, brucedp5 via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Why aren't they installing these power-walls at well used L3 EVSE
>>stations?
>> Is there a major utility complaint that highly used L3 EVSE puts a
>>high
>> demand on the grid?
>> That the EV's power demand during peak HVAC power periods are counter
>> productive?
>>
>> I think that a prime candidate is this L3 station at Arlington City
>>Hall,
>OR (http://api.plugshare.com/view/location/47270). It is in a "desert"
>of
>charging stations along I-84 and looking at the comments it is the
>power
>company that is charging too much. Too bad the owner just doesn't put
>the
>cost to charge to what it would cost for the power, at least initially.
>
>Even a battery unit that didn't have enough to fully charge a car could
>be
>used in combination with the grid where the grid is used to just below
>the
>demand charge threshold and the battery supplying the rest. When the
>car
>stops charging the battery unit would charge back up in anticipation of
>the
>next vehicle.
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