I think we are in the majority on this list with those sentiments, but not in 
the overall market.  Most people are shopping primarily with their pocketbook, 
and only looking at the short term costs.


Hyundai has a great example of this in their lineup right now with their Ionic 
series.  Compare the price of their 59 mpg hybrid which includes the cost of an 
electric drive train to the cost of their 100+ mpc EV.


Damon


________________________________
From: robert winfield <winfield...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Friday, October 6, 2017 8:41:54 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List; Rod Hower
Cc: damon henry
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Fiat ups the amount lo$t on each 500e sold> (a 2012 
compliance EV) r:87mi

"An ICE vehicle just needs a stamped piece of metal to store it's energy.  An 
EV needs a complicated, expensive battery (or pie in the sky fuel cell)."

It's the fuel that goes inside the stamped piece of metal, or the "complicated, 
expensive battery"

where do you get the fuel, "gasoline" or the fuel "sunlight"?

personally, i have been partially opting for "sunlight" since 1999 with a tiny 
PV array, and am hopefully on track for a much larger PV array so my "partial" 
can change to almost or even 100% or greater


________________________________
From: damon henry via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
To: Rod Hower <rodho...@ameritech.net>; Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
<ev@lists.evdl.org>
Cc: damon henry <damonhe...@hotmail.com>
Sent: Friday, October 6, 2017 11:31 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Fiat ups the amount lo$t on each 500e sold> (a 2012 
compliance EV) r:87mi

I don't disagree with your assessment of less complexity, more reliability, but 
the less expensive part is tough to accomplish.  This is primarily because of 
the energy storage systems.  An ICE vehicle just needs a stamped piece of metal 
to store it's energy.  An EV needs a complicated, expensive battery (or pie in 
the sky fuel cell).  There will always be a huge price difference in this part 
of the technology regardless of mass production economics, so the cost 
difference will have to made up elsewhere.  The most likely place would be the 
drivetrain, since the rest of the vehicle is kind of a wash,  If you can build 
the electric motor/inverter/gear reduction for less than internal combustion 
engine/transmission/control electronics, you have a chance of matching price 
for comparable vehicles.


Damon

________________________________
From: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org<mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org>> on 
behalf of Rod Hower via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org>>
Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2017 5:09:38 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Rod Hower
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Fiat ups the amount lo$t on each 500e sold> (a 2012 
compliance EV) r:87mi

>From an engineering viewpoint, EV's are much less complex than an internal 
>combustion engine.  Instead of thousands of parts trying to put lipstick on a 
>pig to increase emissions, you have a simple electric motor with a couple of 
>bearings.  The inverter is complex electronics, but not anymore than all of 
>the modules created to control an engine and keep emissions in check.  How 
>many electric motor or inverter failures have you heard about?  The battery 
>system is complex and in transition, but the range is increasing and 
>complexity is less than that for an ICE.  I see far less failure possibilities 
>in an EV and believe that in mass production they are considerably cheaper to 
>produce than an ICE.  I think the automotive industry is beginning to realize 
>this but it does create problems for the resale market that keeps cars on the 
>road (for example, Autozone, no oil changes or filters, almost no brakes or 
>calipers, no antifreeze, mufflers, O2 sensors etc. for them to sale).  Tesla 
>change
d the game and it's downhill from here for the ICE!


    On Thursday, October 5, 2017 5:30 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
<ev@lists.evdl.org<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org>> wrote:


Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Fiat ups the amount lo$t on each 500e sold> (a
2012 compliance EV)

Business that are only in anything only to make a quick buck will always
fail in the long run.  Building any car takes hundreds of millions of dollar
investment in new engineering and tooling.  Only a fool or a crook would try
to get that all back in selling just a few hundred cars.

No, ALL cars, not just EV's have to sell hundreds of thousands to be
"profitable" its just the cost of doing business.

Remember the big right wing commentators that said that a Chevy Volt cost
more than a Hummer?  Because they simply took all that was invested by GM
over the previous 8 years of designing and building the Volt and then
divided by the first 1000 cars sold and came up with a HUGE cost.

Only the stupid would believe such hogwash...

Bob
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