I think we should switch as much of our transportation systems as possible to electric, but some of them just can't work with present (and near future) tech; Long-haul flights. These are also very carbon intensive!
This is where we need biofuels. The only problem for battery-electric is scaling it, and doing so without a huge up front carbon release. On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 5:07 PM Bill Dennis via EV <[email protected]> wrote: > Here's a link to a timely video on the hydrogen flying topic: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFlV1jY6K7Q > > Bill > > -----Original Message----- > From: EV [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry Gales via > EV > Sent: Sunday, May 9, 2021 3:09 PM > To: [email protected]; Electric Vehicle Discussion List > Cc: Larry Gales > Subject: Re: [EVDL] opinion article on hydrogen > > There are 3 major types of flying to consider: (1) VTOL (mainly > helicopters), (2) regional flights up to 600 miles (more than 1/2 of all > commercial flights are within 600 miles), and (3) long distance flights, > more than 600 miles. > > For the first two types, battery powered electric aircraft (like the 600+ > mile range Eviation Alice), and VTOL are simply far superior to what we > have now, in terms of cleanliness, quietness, safety, smoothness, and > dramatically lower fuel and maintenance costs. So, instead of flying less, > we will likely be flying more, and paying much less. > > Some time ago I ran the figures for the cost of CH4 (methane) fuel if we > created CH4 by (a) electrolyzing water to get H2, (b) using Direct Air > Capture to get CO2, and (c) using the Sabatier process to produce CH4. > When burned in a jet engine it is carbon neutral because the CO2 we emit is > exactly the amount of CO2 that we captured. > > I don't remember the exact cost of the fuel, but it was less than twice > what it is now. But, given that fuel cost is only 20% of the cost for > current flights, that translates to prices about 20% more than at present. > > So, maybe the very low cost of short range battery powered aircraft which > makeup more than 1/2 of all flights could subsidize the longer flights? > > > > > On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 1:36 PM (-Phil-) via EV <[email protected]> wrote: > > > If future true carbon neutral is "handwaving", then I'd love to hear your > > proposal for long-distance air travel? What have you got? > > > > Right now until we have something like fusion, There isn't any current > tech > > that can handle it. People aren't just going to stop flying. > > > > The only path I can see right now is Biofuels, Yes it's dirty now, just > > like coal on the grid powering EVs, but it most definitely can be fixed > to > > be at least carbon neutral. The solution to get free-enterprise to work > on > > this is a real carbon tax. > > > > On Sat, May 8, 2021 at 1:46 PM EVDL Administrator <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > On 8 May 2021 at 10:10, (-Phil-) via EV wrote: > > > > > > > Biofuels can at least be carbon neutral, as you can close the > > > > carbon cycle. It will take a long way to get there of course, as the > > > > complete biofuel production cycle is also still a carbon intensive > > > > operation, but this can be fixed over time. > > > > > > With all due respect, "this can be fixed over time" is a bit too much > > hand- > > > waving for my taste. > > > > > > The problem with biofuels is that growing and harvesting crops, > > processing > > > them, and transporting the fuel to the use point requires substantial > > > energy > > > input, and most of it comes from carbon based fuels. Even fertilizer > and > > > pesticides are made from petroleum. I just don't see that equation > > > changing > > > fast enough to get us to carbon-neutral in time. > > > > > > The only biofuel application I can think of that *might* get closer > > sooner > > > - > > > and I'm not 100% sure about even this - is electricity generation. For > > > example, Uruguay's power system runs largely on pulverized Eucalyptus > > > wood. > > > The problem with this is that petroleum giants have governments bought > > and > > > paid for, and they can't make money from distributing wood chips as > > easily > > > as they can from corn processed into ethanol. > > > > > > There's also the fact that food turned into fuel while people are > > starving > > > round the world has some ... ethical considerations. > > > > > > > To get to electrification quicker, I still think some hybridization > is > > > > good. > > > > > > Your point about improving utilization of limited battery-production > > > capacity is a good one. We need to keep plugging ahead (sorry) with > > > battery > > > recycling, and with developing batteries that use less exotic > materials. > > > NiMH, anyone? Hello? > > > > > > But at the consumer level, I think that the use case for hybrids - I > mean > > > real ones, not "you naver have to plug it in" pseudo-hybrids - is > fading > > > as > > > true BEV battery capacity grows and rapid charging facilities multiply. > > > > > > It's also easier and more efficient to add PV capacity to EV charging > > than > > > it is to add "renewability" to ICEV refueling. > > > > > > Finally, a BEV is mechanically much simpler and at least theoretically > > > more > > > reliable than an ICEV, let alone a hybrid with the complexity of both. > I > > > haven't run the numbers, but intuitively, manufacturing a BEV has to be > > > less > > > carbon intensive than manufacturing a hybrid, and it should have a > longer > > > service life. > > > > > > Like LPs and phono cartridges in 1980, today's ICEVs are highly > complex, > > > almost impossibly refined machines only made affordable by serial > > > production > > > and massive amounts of long-term development. > > > > > > Like CD players in the late 1980s and early 1990s, EVs are evolving > > > rapidly > > > and quickly declining in cost, thanks to economy of scale and research > > > into > > > battery optimization. > > > > > > Perhaps I'm being uncharacteristically overoptimistic, and I could > > > certainly > > > be wrong, but I think that what CDs did to LPs by 1995 is what EVs are > > > poised to do to ICEVs now - if politicians will let them. True hybrids > > > may > > > still have a place, but I think (and hope) not for much longer. > > > > > > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey > > > > > > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my > > > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt > > > > > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > > That's not a "cloud," It's just someone else's computer. > > > > > > -- Anonymous > > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > > > > http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210509/31e7fa91/ > attachment.html > <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210509/31e7fa91/attachment.html> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Address messages to [email protected] > > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > > > > > -- > Larry Gales > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > < > http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210509/7e68de44 > /attachment.html > <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210509/7e68de44/attachment.html> > > > _______________________________________________ > Address messages to [email protected] > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > > _______________________________________________ > Address messages to [email protected] > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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