There are many more “problems” with battery electric. You call them “problems,” but they are really just characteristics that MAY make them less suitable than other option depending on the needed use case or duty cycle.
Charge time, infrastructure cost, weight, volume, storage.... - Mark Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone > On May 9, 2021, at 7:48 PM, (-Phil-) via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote: > > I think we should switch as much of our transportation systems as possible > to electric, but some of them just can't work with present (and near > future) tech; Long-haul flights. These are also very carbon intensive! > > This is where we need biofuels. > > The only problem for battery-electric is scaling it, and doing so without a > huge up front carbon release. > >> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 5:07 PM Bill Dennis via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote: >> >> Here's a link to a timely video on the hydrogen flying topic: >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFlV1jY6K7Q >> >> Bill >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Larry Gales via >> EV >> Sent: Sunday, May 9, 2021 3:09 PM >> To: p...@ingineerix.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List >> Cc: Larry Gales >> Subject: Re: [EVDL] opinion article on hydrogen >> >> There are 3 major types of flying to consider: (1) VTOL (mainly >> helicopters), (2) regional flights up to 600 miles (more than 1/2 of all >> commercial flights are within 600 miles), and (3) long distance flights, >> more than 600 miles. >> >> For the first two types, battery powered electric aircraft (like the 600+ >> mile range Eviation Alice), and VTOL are simply far superior to what we >> have now, in terms of cleanliness, quietness, safety, smoothness, and >> dramatically lower fuel and maintenance costs. So, instead of flying less, >> we will likely be flying more, and paying much less. >> >> Some time ago I ran the figures for the cost of CH4 (methane) fuel if we >> created CH4 by (a) electrolyzing water to get H2, (b) using Direct Air >> Capture to get CO2, and (c) using the Sabatier process to produce CH4. >> When burned in a jet engine it is carbon neutral because the CO2 we emit is >> exactly the amount of CO2 that we captured. >> >> I don't remember the exact cost of the fuel, but it was less than twice >> what it is now. But, given that fuel cost is only 20% of the cost for >> current flights, that translates to prices about 20% more than at present. >> >> So, maybe the very low cost of short range battery powered aircraft which >> makeup more than 1/2 of all flights could subsidize the longer flights? >> >> >> >> >>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 1:36 PM (-Phil-) via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote: >>> >>> If future true carbon neutral is "handwaving", then I'd love to hear your >>> proposal for long-distance air travel? What have you got? >>> >>> Right now until we have something like fusion, There isn't any current >> tech >>> that can handle it. People aren't just going to stop flying. >>> >>> The only path I can see right now is Biofuels, Yes it's dirty now, just >>> like coal on the grid powering EVs, but it most definitely can be fixed >> to >>> be at least carbon neutral. The solution to get free-enterprise to work >> on >>> this is a real carbon tax. >>> >>> On Sat, May 8, 2021 at 1:46 PM EVDL Administrator <evp...@drmm.net> >> wrote: >>> >>>> On 8 May 2021 at 10:10, (-Phil-) via EV wrote: >>>> >>>>> Biofuels can at least be carbon neutral, as you can close the >>>>> carbon cycle. It will take a long way to get there of course, as the >>>>> complete biofuel production cycle is also still a carbon intensive >>>>> operation, but this can be fixed over time. >>>> >>>> With all due respect, "this can be fixed over time" is a bit too much >>> hand- >>>> waving for my taste. >>>> >>>> The problem with biofuels is that growing and harvesting crops, >>> processing >>>> them, and transporting the fuel to the use point requires substantial >>>> energy >>>> input, and most of it comes from carbon based fuels. Even fertilizer >> and >>>> pesticides are made from petroleum. I just don't see that equation >>>> changing >>>> fast enough to get us to carbon-neutral in time. >>>> >>>> The only biofuel application I can think of that *might* get closer >>> sooner >>>> - >>>> and I'm not 100% sure about even this - is electricity generation. For >>>> example, Uruguay's power system runs largely on pulverized Eucalyptus >>>> wood. >>>> The problem with this is that petroleum giants have governments bought >>> and >>>> paid for, and they can't make money from distributing wood chips as >>> easily >>>> as they can from corn processed into ethanol. >>>> >>>> There's also the fact that food turned into fuel while people are >>> starving >>>> round the world has some ... ethical considerations. >>>> >>>>> To get to electrification quicker, I still think some hybridization >> is >>>>> good. >>>> >>>> Your point about improving utilization of limited battery-production >>>> capacity is a good one. We need to keep plugging ahead (sorry) with >>>> battery >>>> recycling, and with developing batteries that use less exotic >> materials. >>>> NiMH, anyone? Hello? >>>> >>>> But at the consumer level, I think that the use case for hybrids - I >> mean >>>> real ones, not "you naver have to plug it in" pseudo-hybrids - is >> fading >>>> as >>>> true BEV battery capacity grows and rapid charging facilities multiply. >>>> >>>> It's also easier and more efficient to add PV capacity to EV charging >>> than >>>> it is to add "renewability" to ICEV refueling. >>>> >>>> Finally, a BEV is mechanically much simpler and at least theoretically >>>> more >>>> reliable than an ICEV, let alone a hybrid with the complexity of both. >> I >>>> haven't run the numbers, but intuitively, manufacturing a BEV has to be >>>> less >>>> carbon intensive than manufacturing a hybrid, and it should have a >> longer >>>> service life. >>>> >>>> Like LPs and phono cartridges in 1980, today's ICEVs are highly >> complex, >>>> almost impossibly refined machines only made affordable by serial >>>> production >>>> and massive amounts of long-term development. >>>> >>>> Like CD players in the late 1980s and early 1990s, EVs are evolving >>>> rapidly >>>> and quickly declining in cost, thanks to economy of scale and research >>>> into >>>> battery optimization. >>>> >>>> Perhaps I'm being uncharacteristically overoptimistic, and I could >>>> certainly >>>> be wrong, but I think that what CDs did to LPs by 1995 is what EVs are >>>> poised to do to ICEVs now - if politicians will let them. True hybrids >>>> may >>>> still have a place, but I think (and hope) not for much longer. >>>> >>>> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey >>>> >>>> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my >>>> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt >>>> >>>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = >>>> That's not a "cloud," It's just someone else's computer. >>>> >>>> -- Anonymous >>>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = >>>> >>>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>> URL: < >>> >> >> http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210509/31e7fa91/ >> attachment.html >> <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210509/31e7fa91/attachment.html> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org >>> No other addresses in TO and CC fields >>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >>> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ >>> LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >>> >> >> >> -- >> Larry Gales >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> < >> http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210509/7e68de44 >> /attachment.html >> <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210509/7e68de44/attachment.html> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org >> No other addresses in TO and CC fields >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ >> LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org >> No other addresses in TO and CC fields >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ >> LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >> > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210509/35fa8b43/attachment.html> > _______________________________________________ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > _______________________________________________ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
